Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
How does that not qualify as power? His humanity made him MORE powerful.
There is absolutely zero evidence that Thor was more powerful because of his experiences with humanity. At multiple points the text explicitly tells us that Thor's humanity made it impossible for TWSAIS to predict what Thor would do, as they could with every other god.
"TWSAIS: "We know all the outcomes, past, present and future."
Thor: "No! This time is different. My father saw a way to hide me from your manipulations. You have seen the strength of the Gods, but not of mortal men. I have lived as one of them and their ways flow through me."
TWSAIS: "Really? This could be interesting..."
Then later:
"You possessed something TWSAIS could not comprehend, and therefore could not foresee. Your knowledge of humanity, a gift from your father, shielded your true intentions from the shadow gods."
"Your singular experience as both god and man has set you apart. It gave you a human understanding of fate, of self-determination, of self-sacrifice. That knowledge, combined with the unyielding heroism of the gods, saved you."
"In the face of overwhelming odds, man will always fight, never back down nor surrender. Where the Asgardian gods embraced a singular, inevitable death - the Shadow gods trapped them in a never-ending cycle - your human experiences sought another way..."
Thor's humanity did NOT make him more powerful than Odin. It simply meant that he addressed challenges and sought solutions to problems in ways that no god did, which meant that TWSAIS had no clue what he was up to until it was too late to stop him. The text tells us this explicitly.
Cheers.
Originally posted by LGU
TWSAIS had no clue what he was up to until it was too late to stop him.
They (the Fates and TWSAIS) were right there in front of Thor BEFORE he acted.
Heck, Thor even spit a mini dialogue BEFORE acting.
The Fates > Odin ...
and TWSAIS (with a thought) produced NINE universeS (one being 616) for Loki. (so, far beyond Odin)
*** WHY didn't they attempt to stop Thor ***
Who cares how Thor was able to hide from their perceptions,
it's not like Thor broke the loom behind their backs from some undisclosed secret location 😂
NO! ... Thor was in front of their faces, and he jobbed before acting. 👆
------------------------------------------------
Only option here:
... you believe Thor was immune to both of them due to his "humanity" ... which is nonsense and false.
Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
How does that not qualify as power? His humanity made him MORE powerful. Your head is too far up Galans ass for you to think. The pomegranate poms doesn't help either.
Do you read skim look at pretty pictures only as far as you need to to feel that your opinion is validated? It outright stated that his humanity only made him unpredictable compared to the behavior of most Gods.
Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
Yet you are the one proposing a no limits fallacy. You are proposing Superman's magic immunity spans the omniverse when there is no evidence of such.
When a character is already in the Skyfather range, and stated specifically to be immune to magic because of his 5D heritage, it's hardly a stretch to assume that applies to a being who's only a little above him in raw power.
Originally posted by zopzop
Yup. And again it was do to his humanity and the lessons he learned as the mortal Don Blake.
Originally posted by zopzopExactly. 👆
Why do you keep ignoring the repeated on panel proof that it was his humanity that allowed him to overcome the Fates and end the cycle of Ragnarok? I mean I didn't write the story. If you have a problem with that take it up with the writer.
I mean, it was stated MULTIPLE times on-panel that RKT's humanity/mortality is what gave him the advantage over The Fates & TWSAIS... Never once was his raw power credited for such(heck, RKT himself stated that he did NOT have the power to defeat The Fates outright.)
Furthermore, it was ODIN who masterminded/planned all of the events that led to Thor gaining this power and overcoming the aforementioned beings. Odin KNEW his son's mortal traits would ultimately allow him to overcome the cycle of Ragnarok -- that's WHY he sent Thor to Earth as a mortal in the first place:
http://i.imgur.com/Skm1TvK.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/uX6jHv1.jpg
At this point, all the Thor faction *can* do is ignore on-panel evidence, in favor of their own preconceived opinions and such. Per on-panel evidence, the power differential between RKT and Odin was marginal at best. This notion that Thor was "FAR" or "WAY" or "TIERS" more powerful than Odin is entirely baseless, tbh -- it is literally supported by NO legitimate evidence. As I said earlier: this is a very strange phenomenon I've noticed in RKT threads as of late.
Originally posted by LGU👆
There is absolutely zero evidence that Thor was more powerful because of his experiences with humanity. At multiple points the text explicitly tells us that Thor's humanity made it impossible for TWSAIS to predict what Thor would do, as they could with every other god."TWSAIS: "We know all the outcomes, past, present and future."
Thor: "No! This time is different. My father saw a way to hide me from your manipulations. You have seen the strength of the Gods, but not of mortal men. I have lived as one of them and their ways flow through me."
TWSAIS: "Really? This could be interesting..."
Then later:
"[b]You possessed something TWSAIS could not comprehend, and therefore could not foresee. Your knowledge of humanity, a gift from your father, shielded your true intentions from the shadow gods
.""Your singular experience as both god and man has set you apart. It gave you a human understanding of fate, of self-determination, of self-sacrifice. That knowledge, combined with the unyielding heroism of the gods, saved you."
"In the face of overwhelming odds, man will always fight, never back down nor surrender. Where the Asgardian gods embraced a singular, inevitable death - the Shadow gods trapped them in a never-ending cycle - your human experiences sought another way..."
Thor's humanity did NOT make him more powerful than Odin. It simply meant that he addressed challenges and sought solutions to problems in ways that no god did, which meant that TWSAIS had no clue what he was up to until it was too late to stop him. The text tells us this explicitly.
Cheers. [/B]
Yeah, I posted all of that already... It was ignored by most of the hardcore Thor faction. #Shocker
Originally posted by Cogito👆
...Except it was explicitly stated on panel that he's immune to magic
Originally posted by Mr Master*** WHY didn't they attempt to stop Thor ***
Who cares how Thor was able to hide from their perceptions,
it's not like Thor broke the loom behind their backs from some undisclosed secret location 😂NO! ... Thor was in front of their faces, and he jobbed before acting. 👆
------------------------------------------------
Only option here:
... you believe Thor was immune to both of them due to his "humanity" ... which is nonsense and false.
I can understand the differing views hence the disconnect in the interpretations of the story. It was a bit vague(ish) in respect to the level of power Thor had finally reached. The story definitely makes a point out of Thor's time with humanity and how it helped him overcome these extremely powerful beings. But the way the Fates and Those Who Sit Above in Shadow capitulated without even a hint of defiance has to speak for something considering how powerful they're supposed to be.
Imo RKT > Odin. Was he way above? I don't think so. If Odin had to go against RKT, I think RKT would school him by a gud majority though.
Originally posted by Mr Master
----------------------------------------------[b]Those Who Sit Above in Shadow
give Loki NINE UniverseS at their entropic stage. (one being 616)----------------------------------------------[/b]
scan of them giving him the nine worlds?
The writer tells us about the realm of 'They Who Sit Above in Shadow:'"If Gods can be said to have Gods themselves, this is where they live"
----------------------------
'Those Who Sit Above in Shadow' tell Loki:
"We ... who are to Asgard as its immortal sons and daughters are to the realms of Men"
Notice, they also threaten Loki ...
Loki, doesn't pause to obey:
----------------------------
so....they frightened loki into obeying? 😕 they are more powerful than odin, sure, more than likely. how much more powerful? completely unknown.
Loki found a loophole to defy the orders he was given,
so 'Those Who Sit Above in Shadow' gave Loki what he wanted, which was to rule the nine realms,
but they played Loki as Uatu appears and tells us,
they set Loki up at the end of time where the nine realms are heading towards entropy."With the slightest of thought,
the Ones Who Sit Above in Shadow, Gods to the Gods themselves, gave Loki what he wanted"
soooo.....they used a time travel spell and banished him to the end of time? cool, and underhanded. sending loki time traveling is hardly some crazy-uber fate.....
Rune King Thor is about to phuk their whole shit up too ... they confront Thor, but ...TWSAIS: "Wait Thor! We see your deeds, you have won our respect. We witness not only your strength but your wisdom."
Rune King Thor: 'aaahhh shut the phuk up son' ... "I come as your doom!"
You were depicted as having power over universeS ... I'm RKT, I don't care, "I come as your doom" stoned [/B]
power over universes? wut? last i checked you barely rated asgard as a pocket dimension, now you're making out their unsupported claim to be that they can simply control whole universes at will? wth is happening here? those above>>>>>eternity?? i can't believe what i'm reading here.
and thor WAS their doom--in stopping the cycle he prevented them from gaining any more power. i get into this more later, but as for why they didn't just drop in and stop him physically--maybe they're only uber in their own realm. maybe they simply aren't as powerful as they claim. or maybe they simply jobbed to rkt. they wouldn't be the first big-bad to job to a plot, they won't be the last. i mean what have they done on panel to prove they are as powerful as they claim? you've made clear your stance on narration as support recently, but you're willing to count THESE guys as super-uber because they said so?? if they had some feats to support it, sure. they quite literally have nothing to even hint at a level of power relative to the known higher powers..... how are they relative to galactus? impossible to say. how are they relative to really anyone? impossible to say.
Originally posted by Mr Master
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Mangog? ... whatever. Loki, who was at-least Skyfatherish? Nice, but whatever.
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The fact that Thor was able to act against the Norn Fates says it all.
To the 3 sisters, ([b]Norn Fates
) even all-father Odin's existence ...... is just a fragile "thread" that the Fates can snip at their leisure.[/b]
huh? proof they can cut threads at their leisure..... the fates have a job. they cut strings when it is time. they don't just say--meh, let's cut this or that string for sh!ts and giggles. they serve and uphold a purpose. you make it sound like they could grab galactus's string (if he has one) and snip it whenever they feel like it. and what makes you so sure ONLY they can cut the strings?
Here they allow Balder to handle (and choose to cut and die if he wishes) his own "life thread"
he didn't do it,
instead he was able to witness all possible consequences based on any/all decisions he ever made into the Future: 🙂
so, balder could have cut a string. if that's the case, why should anyone be impressed that rkt, with his hammer, was capable of cutting a string on the loom? the fates have great vision of alternate possibilities and futures. how does that translate into direct personal power?
The Norn Fates are unaffected by Satrina's attack, and then state:"Our power be supreme ... none hath power against us, not even the All-Father Himself"
----------------------------
that is likely true--or mostly true (being immune to some random's attack certainly doesn't prove the point though). they are the norse (and perhaps greek) manifestation of destiny, and hence are considered unavoidable/unstoppable because no one is supposed to transcend their fates. they represent a concept that can't (usually) be altered. thanos even mentions them when he's discussing his own history implying that despite all the power he's held, he was still, ultimately, directed by the fates. but that type of esoteric power doesn't translate to the type of personal power you seem to be hinting at or wanting us to accept. not imo anyway.
Daken asked the Norn Fates:"You can see the Future" ... The Norns reply: "We are the Future"
man, again, for someone who is so against narration, you seem to be all over it in this thread. you think they are literally 'the future'? wtf does that even mean? i mean eternity is literally the incarnation of time in marvel. if they are actually the future, eternity is what, past and present only?? they are obviously not speaking literally there. not sure how you or anyone could think otherwise.
The Norn Fates inside their realm, ground zero of their power source:Rune King Thor: 'I'm about to phuk your whole shit up biatches'
The Norn Fates: "No! No! It's not fair, they gave this power to us ... to us! Don't take it away!"
Rune King Thor: 'Oh, but I will .. and wut u gonna do bout it?' ... freeze, squirm and observe your demise! [/B]
bottom line: the fates weren't going to do anything about thor because the entire point of the arc was escaping destiny, ie, escaping his fate. the fates were given power by those above. thor had gone beyond their ability to manipulate, and hence was outside the fates ability to stop. thor broke the cycle. he changed not only his fate, but the fate of all of asgard and the nine worlds. they (the fates) literally had no more power over him because the combination of his godhood and humanity placed him outside their ability to affect. it has nothing to do with his being more powerful in direct relation to them--he flat out STATED, in black and white that he did NOT have the power to alter what has been written by the fates (been shown a ridiculous number of times, but......here, again):
not sure how much more clear something has to be. he was not more POWERFUL than fate--he was simply OUTSIDE its ability to influence. he even credits the fates themselves for part of his ability to do what he did:
http://i.imgur.com/dsqqC8C.jpg
"the virtue of heroes you planted in us is fully realized..."
in destroying the loom, he simply broke the cycle. he was wise enough to know HOW to end of the cycle because of ODIN's plan:
and thor's own combination of godhood and humanity that placed him outside the ability of those above to predict or understand. he was hidden from the manipulations of those above BECAUSE of what odin did:
that is the entire point of everything that thor was--the reason for his godhood, the reason he was forced to live among men, the reason he had to die to gain the runes--all these things led to his ability to hide his intentions from those above, to ESCAPE the fates, and end the fate of all of asgard by finally breaking the cycle. his humanity even prevented the odinforce from understanding what he was going to do:
and here again the point is reiterated in the issue summary:
those above couldn't predict what he was going to do. they didn't view him as a threat until he had the string under his hammer--by then it was too late, he had done something they could not foresee and interfere with.
so, why didn't they just jump in at the end and have some huge battle with him? because that would have gone against the entire point of the story--the gods embraced the final battle and death, but thor's human experience sought victory by following the path of KNOWLEDGE, NOT battle. the ending of the story is a blatant parallel to the story as a whole.
it's not that he was more powerful than fate or those above. he may or may not have been. by what degree is impossible to say. the point is he used KNOWLEDGE, not power, to win the day. the story itself makes power comparisons...petty. attempting to ascertain a level to rkt is in many ways similar to discussing the power of the endless. neither story-type lends itself to these types of versus discussions.
