Originally posted by AncientPower
Krayt dying isn't nearly as disadvantageous as all of that.
Lol you have absolutely no basis with which to say this. Is Muur being distracted by Celeste and in a weakened spirit form worse than having super-painful spikes constantly injected into you? Who knows?
Who is undoubtedly DE Sidious tier. 👆
lol ok.
Valkorion has immense esoteric abilities that Luke is vulnerable to.
Like...? In actual combat all he ever does is use Force lightning and telekinesis anyway.
He can also create mass illusions of himself.
Hardly unfamiliar to Luke, who can use illusions too.
He also has nine teammates to use to buy time.
Yeah but you have to establish that they can actually threaten Luke for this to matter. Even if you pool their showings together they don't match Luke's tanking UnuThul feat in Dark Nest, and they aren't fast enough or coordinated enough to do much but sporadically and inconsistently try to hit him with TK and FL way below what Luke can handle.
The Dread Masters were so powerful that they could resurrect each other, and others, from the dead. You have absolutely no idea how ridiculous their feats are.
So Cade-tier?
Shit reflexes, which is why they can teleport without gesturing. I love how you're trying to make the evidence of absence argument.
It's not an absence of evidence, it's evidence that they're far weaker than Valkorion and get taken out by small strike teams of no-names.
Valkorion dominating Outlander, Arcann and Vaylin casually and simultaneously is easily more impressive.
Is it? If I were to ask you for their best feats I'm pretty sure they'd be scaling off of Valkorion, because they are.
She can't fight, because you say she can't. That's funny. Vaylin overloading the Sanitarium to the point that the mountainous complex was reduced to dust, from orbit, casually, indicates that she is incredibly powerful and almost certainly Revan tier.
I was talking about competence but OK. Luke closed the distance on Abeloth and DE Sidious, now we're to believe Vaylin and Revan are going to stop him before he can gut Valkorion? (the DM's and Arcann and pointless here)
They weren't small freighters. 😂
They didn't look very large to me, certainly not as large as the cruisers Luke could f*ck up.
The lightning that overwhelmed the ships and caused crippling damage was merely the excess lightning from the FLS. Arcann was tanking the most concentrated and powerful portions of the FLS.
They weren't actually harming the hulls, they were apparently damaging the control systems or something. It's not a feat that proves much of anything about beating Luke.
That's the most hilarious rebuttal you've made thus far. Arcann had expended his energy defending himself from the FLS before Valkorion upped the output which blasted Arcann clear the fvck out. Also, the height from which Arcann unconsciously fell was far, far higher than Anakin using the Force to guide himself down to lower lanes of traffic.
It seems like you're backtracking to this feat meaning nothing much at all, unless if you can quantify how exhausted Arcann was and why "an exhausted Arcann is still only a little weaker than AotC Anakin" matters here. Also terminal velocity is a thing, it doesn't matter that Arcann's fall was slightly longer given Anakin's was more than long enough to hit terminal speed anyway.
Ajunta Pall tells Revan that the source of their strength was the Star Map in Sadow's tomb. Malak mastered the power of the Star Forge, an infinitely more powerful source of Dark side energy than the Star maps.
Oh, you mean SF empowered Malak. OK.
You have absolutely no evidence suggesting Plagueis is > Vitiate.
Plagueis blurb, sis.
In fact, Valkorion's feats absolutely defecate on Plagueis'. His death caused a shockwave in the Force that Satele Shan was almost knocked out by.
Sidious's created a DS nexus and Luke >> RotJ Sidious.
Satele Shan being Darth Marr's only equal amongst the Jedi. All other Force users less powerful than her would've been knocked out. That's at least millions of Jedi and Sith.
Lol so why don't we hear of all the Jedi and Sith who died in the middle of combat as they just fell to the ground and got blasted? Satele's Force senses are especially attuned, Yoda was also physically sticken by Order 66 to a greater extent than Obi Wan was, this doesn't mean Obi Wan > Yoda.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Lol you have absolutely no basis with which to say this. Is Muur being distracted by Celeste and in a weakened spirit form worse than having super-painful spikes constantly injected into you? Who knows?
Given that we have Marka Ragnos losing to Jaden Korr when in spirit form, I'm inclined to go with the former. Not that you're really making much of a response with this in the first place.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
lol ok.
👆
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Like...? In actual combat all he ever does is use Force lightning and telekinesis anyway.
Like the wave of sorcerous dark energy he knocked out Braga's strike team with. The other wave he managed to nigh-instantly kill hundreds of Knights of Zakuul with, without killing the Outlander's party in the midst of it. Or the 'flash' of power he used to instantly kill 11 Dark Council members. Or the other Dark Council which he allowed to walk into his throne room before they all died screaming.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Hardly unfamiliar to Luke, who can use illusions too.
These were nigh-physical manifestations who could cause fatal harm and appear randomly. Not to mention how he spontaneously creates Monoliths who are nigh-immortal and made of his raw power.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Yeah but you have to establish that they can actually threaten Luke for this to matter. Even if you pool their showings together they don't match Luke's tanking UnuThul feat in Dark Nest, and they aren't fast enough or coordinated enough to do much but sporadically and inconsistently try to hit him with TK and FL way below what Luke can handle.
Given Luke struggled with Sith sabers when a nexus interfered with him, struggled against Lost Tribe High Lords who have fvck all feats to compare to anyone on the team Luke faces, and more importantly the fact that UnuThul is actually pretty shit in combat in the first place. Yeah, that's not good enough.
Oh and the Dread Masters and Valkorion have poor coordination? They have 300 years of teamwork and experience to go with. Vaylin and Arcann, who have consistently fought together, aren't coordinated? Revan and the Outlander are both expert combatants who have led entire groups and armies in combat. Just in case you don't get it, Valkorion, Arcann, Vaylin and Revan can be amped by the Dread Masters as they fight Luke.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
So Cade-tier?
Comparing Dark Transfer to what the DM's did is almost as stupid as the last comparison you made.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
It's not an absence of evidence, it's evidence that they're far weaker than Valkorion and get taken out by small strike teams of no-names.
Because Valkorion is DE Sidious tier and you're yet to prove that Luke ever surpassed Sidious in the first place. Those 'small strike teams' are game mechanics, we know only that the greatest Jedi and Sith in the galaxy laid siege to Oricon and after an immense battle, the Dread Masters were finally broken. Your lowballing is actually pathetic.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Is it? If I were to ask you for their best feats I'm pretty sure they'd be scaling off of Valkorion, because they are.
Not at all. The Outlander has a range of feats and power growth that Caedus doesn't contend with. Vaylin has her mountain feat above all else. Arcann has dominating the Outlander in the Force until KOTET.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
I was talking about competence but OK. Luke closed the distance on Abeloth and DE Sidious, now we're to believe Vaylin and Revan are going to stop him before he can gut Valkorion? (the DM's and Arcann and pointless here)
He closed the distance on Abeloth who has demonstrably the worst combat tactics to power ratio in the mythos by a mile. DE Luke was empowered to ungodly amounts when he closed on Sidious.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
They didn't look very large to me, certainly not as large as the cruisers Luke could f*ck up.
Calling them 'cruisers' is meaningless when some of the ships Valkorion downed were evidently bigger than some of the surrpunding towers.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
They weren't actually harming the hulls, they were apparently damaging the control systems or something. It's not a feat that proves much of anything about beating Luke.
Nice baseless assumption. SCORPIO notes that all life signs in the vicinity of the Spire were instantly killed, something she noted as fascinating. SCORPIO has witnessed the destruction of fleets and the bombardment of planets. The ships were in the midst of preparing to run a blockade against Arcann's Eternal Fleet and logically would've had their shields up. It proves that even pre-prime Arcann can tank massive power for long durations of time.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
It seems like you're backtracking to this feat meaning nothing much at all, unless if you can quantify how exhausted Arcann was and why "an exhausted Arcann is still only a little weaker than AotC Anakin" matters here. Also terminal velocity is a thing, it doesn't matter that Arcann's fall was slightly longer given Anakin's was more than long enough to hit terminal speed anyway.
What the fvck are you on about? You called Arcann surviving that drop unconscious and appearing unharmed afterwards a 'sub-AOTC Anakin' feat despite your laughable comparison. Anakin per the AOTC novel guided himself down using the Force, Arcann was unconscious.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Oh, you mean SF empowered Malak. OK.
Now we're getting somewhere.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Plagueis blurb, sis.
Debunked by Leland Chee, bruh.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Sidious's created a DS nexus and Luke >> RotJ Sidious.
But we were talking about effects on the Force, namely a comparison of Plagueis' death and Valkorion's, in which the comparison massively favors Valkorion.
Though if you wanted to compare nexus creating. The Dread Masters turned Oricon into a hellscape that made Dromund Kaas and Korriban look like Dantooine, and yet they were 'nothing' next to Valkorion.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Lol so why don't we hear of all the Jedi and Sith who died in the middle of combat as they just fell to the ground and got blasted? Satele's Force senses are especially attuned, Yoda was also physically sticken by Order 66 to a greater extent than Obi Wan was, this doesn't mean Obi Wan > Yoda.
Because it's a mail from Shan and not everything happens on-screen/on-page. They were too busy showing the Outlander triumph and take over the Eternal Throne. As a major proponent of Caedus tanking turbolasers, I would've thought you'd grasp that. Also, Satele was evidently not the only one who felt it as Darth Marr's spirit felt it on the spiritual plane. Furthermore, Yoda has personal connections to those Jedi who died en masse. Valkorion's death was a tidal wave through the Force that threatened to knock her clean out.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Lol @ you inventing a strawman where we have Luke and Valk do rounds of TK and then FL, rather than Luke having better combat applicable feats.
Luke Skywalker was not a practitioner of Force Drain powers for instance but Valkorion was among the greatest, and this is a plus for the latter.
Valkorion's exploits on Ziost are an important benchmark because they disclose how strong he really is. Not only is he capable of multi-tasking with his powers but his showings suggest unprecedented raw power and mastery of the Dark Side. So much power that it took 8000 ancient Sith to replicate a feat of equal potency centuries earlier.
With such kind of power and abilities at disposal, it is logical to assume that Valkorion would be capable of insane showings with his TK abilities as well. How do you not get this?
Originally posted by The Ellimist
That doesn't compare with ripping armored warship hulls off, kek.
Barsen'thor III - during the course of Chapter 1 of his main story arc - tore a massive reinforced door apart with relative ease. To give you an idea, this door was like 25 feet in height and about a meter in thickness.
Seriously, man.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Luke's actual combat feats are far better than Valkorion's, and I haven't even bothered to bring up some of his more impressive ones yet.
Has Luke Skywalker ever managed to:
1. One-shot a Darth Marr level opponent?
2. Dispatch an entire Council of some of the strongest Sith of an era?
3. Easily defeat a Strike Team of some of the strongest Jedi of an era?
4. One-shot an entire contingent of Knights of Zakuul (or equivalent opponents) with a wave of energy?
5. Kill an entire world in-fact?
Even during the course of FOTJ story-arc, Luke Skywalker has not manhandled a group of powerful Force-users in a fight; not even close. Luke has struggled against powerful opponents from time-to-time, including Lord Nyax and Darth Caedus.
The best Luke Skywalker have to his name is disarming Palpatine in a lightsaber duel and capitalizing on the environment of a cave in order to ruin an Abeloth's avatar.
Defeating Darth Vader TIER opponents such as UnuThul and Darth Caedus in single combat is not very impressive in my books. And Luke utterly failed to defeat Lord Nyax on his own.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Like you know, being described as immovable to even a supermassive black hole.
Otherwise, Revan is heart of the Force and the Outlander could unite a thousand Stars.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
You have provided exactly one combat feat, which is disabling some ships.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
You can try to puff up these ships all you want, the fact of the matter is that they are not cruisers and Valk didn't actually damage their armor. It's a B-tier feat and you're so obsessed with it, which leads me to think you have nothing else.
That is clearly a Cruiser and there were others of similar size in the vicinity.
And you continue to baffle me with your low-balling effort in regards to this feat. Valkorion was not even aiming at those Starships; he was bombarding Arcann with his power but his FLS expanded to such an extent that some of its bolts went afar and struck scores of Starships in the vicinity. More importantly, even a single bolt was sufficient to disable a military-grade Starship mid-flight.
Your comprehension problems notwithstanding, military-grade Starships are not easy to disable even with an entire stream of Force lightning as you can see in the Return footage.
B-tier feat, my foot. Show me a feat of matching scale and potency involving Force lightning from any of your beloved characters. Good luck.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
🙄Trolling aside, can you show me which of Valk's feats compares?
Originally posted by The Ellimist
It refutes your claim that the fortress only went above the clouds because it was already on a mountain or something.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
What, how does collapsing two buildings compare unless if these were like Coruscant skyscrapers or something?
Originally posted by The Ellimist
And you don't know whether the conflict on Ziost + nexus + Ziost's populace + prep balances out his weakened state or not. Exar Kun only had one of those.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Except...it doesn't for all the aforementioned reasons? And what do you expect, that Luke's going to go wipe out planets for the loltz?In actualized power, a Luke decades before his peak only needed some "unlocked potential" from an untrained Leia's battle meditation that many sources on the fight don't even bother to mention to overwhelm Palpatine, who did more damage to Ziost on a whim with no need for spooky circumstances.
I am sorry but potential of three Skywalkers came into play in that scene and all they managed was to disrupt Palpatine's connection to the Force.
Palpatine did not destroy any planet. His Force Storm struck a moon but the scale of damage is unknown.
Originally posted by AncientPower
Given that we have Marka Ragnos losing to Jaden Korr when in spirit form, I'm inclined to go with the former. Not that you're really making much of a response with this in the first place.
Kek so given that you've assumed Jaden <<< Vong Krayt, I suppose you think now that Murr >>>> Ragnos?
You still haven't given a coherent justification for your Murr spirit scaling beyond weird tangents about Jaden Korr.
Like the wave of sorcerous dark energy he knocked out Braga's strike team with. The other wave he managed to nigh-instantly kill hundreds of Knights of Zakuul with, without killing the Outlander's party in the midst of it.
There's no reason to believe that these attacks are beyond Luke's ability to defend due to their esoteric nature. Luke himself has read all of Palpatine's major works and several other books on sith sorcery, so the burden is on you to establish that Valkorion has some trump card that would actually be effective.
Or the 'flash' of power he used to instantly kill 11 Dark Council members. Or the other Dark Council which he allowed to walk into his throne room before they all died screaming.
Notice how they all die under mysterious circumstances against a prepped nexus Vitiate?
These were nigh-physical manifestations who could cause fatal harm and appear randomly. Not to mention how he spontaneously creates Monoliths who are nigh-immortal and made of his raw power.
Yeah that sounds like Alema to me. Luke himself has created real-life copies of the Jade Shadow, projections of himself, and projections of entire starfleets. All of these were without prep and not on a nexus.
Given Luke struggled with Sith sabers when a nexus interfered with him, struggled against Lost Tribe High Lords who have fvck all feats to compare to anyone on the team Luke faces, and more importantly the fact that UnuThul is actually pretty shit in combat in the first place. Yeah, that's not good enough.
This is peak non-jobbing Luke, AP.
And oh, thanks for bringing up UnuThul. Luke can no-sell the telekinesis of a guy drawing on the combined Force potential of trillions of killiks who can bend turbolaser bolts.
Oh and the Dread Masters and Valkorion have poor coordination? They have 300 years of teamwork and experience to go with. Vaylin and Arcann, who have consistently fought together, aren't coordinated? Revan and the Outlander are both expert combatants who have led entire groups and armies in combat. Just in case you don't get it, Valkorion, Arcann, Vaylin and Revan can be amped by the Dread Masters as they fight Luke.
Lol where's the evidence Valkorion and the Dread Masters practiced ganging up on a single combatant in a duel?
Comparing Dark Transfer to what the DM's did is almost as stupid as the last comparison you made.
Why?
Because Valkorion is DE Sidious tier and you're yet to prove that Luke ever surpassed Sidious in the first place.
He beat Sidious in Dark Empire and his only help was the incredibly suspect and barely mentioned "unlocking hidden resources" of Leia that may or may not have happened.
Those 'small strike teams' are game mechanics, we know only that the greatest Jedi and Sith in the galaxy laid siege to Oricon and after an immense battle, the Dread Masters were finally broken. Your lowballing is actually pathetic.
Lol so that's "game mechanics" but cinematic filters prove Valkorion is galaxy-level? OK then.
Not at all. The Outlander has a range of feats and power growth that Caedus doesn't contend with. Vaylin has her mountain feat above all else. Arcann has dominating the Outlander in the Force until KOTET.
If any of them compare to Caedus changing the will of the Force and deflecting turbolasers let me know.
He closed the distance on Abeloth who has demonstrably the worst combat tactics to power ratio in the mythos by a mile.
Yes, she's the only one who beats Valkorion for that title. Just read the Revan novel. 👆
Luke has a very consistent track record of defeating more powerful foes through superior skill, which is literally the exact situation with Valkorion even if we pretended Valkorion was more powerful.
DE Luke was empowered to ungodly amounts when he closed on Sidious.
Lol you just pulled that out of your ass. It's only vaguely implied in some material that Leia did anything at all in the saber duel, let alone "ungodly amounts".
Calling them 'cruisers' is meaningless when some of the ships Valkorion downed were evidently bigger than some of the surrpunding towers.
What are you talking about? Show me these massive ships please. I'd especially like it if you could show me the ones as big as Vader's fortress, but I suppose we can settle for cruiser size.
Nice baseless assumption. SCORPIO notes that all life signs in the vicinity of the Spire were instantly killed, something she noted as fascinating. SCORPIO has witnessed the destruction of fleets and the bombardment of planets. The ships were in the midst of preparing to run a blockade against Arcann's Eternal Fleet and logically would've had their shields up. It proves that even pre-prime Arcann can tank massive power for long durations of time.
OK, so he killed the crew - he still didn't physically damage the ships themselves.
What the fvck are you on about? You called Arcann surviving that drop unconscious and appearing unharmed afterwards a 'sub-AOTC Anakin' feat despite your laughable comparison. Anakin per the AOTC novel guided himself down using the Force, Arcann was unconscious.
He guided himself to Zam's speeder but was still falling really fast. All you've demonstrated is that an injured/barely conscious Arcann is a little bit weaker in durability than AotC Anakin. How is this relevant to the thread at all?
You should just cut this out of your next reply because it's a worthless feat that proves nothing and you're now entirely on the defensive.
Now we're getting somewhere.Debunked by Leland Chee, bruh.
No, it wasn't. Reading comprehension is your friend, authors always have a license to be subjective, that doesn't mean everything an author writes is wrong; it's not subjective that Plagueis speculates he may have surpassed all sith before him and then the blurb, which is not from Plagueis's point of view, just happens to confirm it. There's no evidence that there was intentional deception or misdirection.
But we were talking about effects on the Force, namely a comparison of Plagueis' death and Valkorion's, in which the comparison massively favors Valkorion.
AHAHAHAH Plagueis's death literally realigned the Force so much that the dark matter of the galaxy changed the orbits of the stars and planets.
Though if you wanted to compare nexus creating. The Dread Masters turned Oricon into a hellscape that made Dromund Kaas and Korriban look like Dantooine, and yet they were 'nothing' next to Valkorion.
Sidious created a galaxy-wide dark side nexus after his master's master's master had pierced the galaxy-wide nexus created by the combined Jedi Order.
Because it's a mail from Shan and not everything happens on-screen/on-page. They were too busy showing the Outlander triumph and take over the Eternal Throne. As a major proponent of Caedus tanking turbolasers, I would've thought you'd grasp that. Also, Satele was evidently not the only one who felt it as Darth Marr's spirit felt it on the spiritual plane. Furthermore, Yoda has personal connections to those Jedi who died en masse. Valkorion's death was a tidal wave through the Force that threatened to knock her clean out.
And Sidious's death literally rebalanced the Force itself, a feat that required the creation of the Star Wars Jesus figure.
It was. Jaina says he can but it seems like the author just made a mistake based on him deflecting a gunship's fire, or else its an unverified statement that doesn't line up with the characters history (as Jaina has no other opportunities to see him doing that).
Also are people seriously still using that ridiculous AotC speeder feat as some kind of impressive thing, lol?
Urs Ant has the UnuThul feat, I may get it when I'm on my laptop.
It should also be noted that "bloodlusted non-jobbing" should bring out most if not all of Luke's full potential; being bloodlusted non-jobbing allowed Maul to compete with Sidious in sabers, RotJ Luke to destroy Vader, TPM Obi Wan to challenge Maul, etc.
Originally posted by The EllimistThat's a pretty intetesting interpretation, honestly.
Urs Ant has the UnuThul feat, I may get it when I'm on my laptop.It should also be noted that "bloodlusted non-jobbing" should bring out most if not all of Luke's full potential; being bloodlusted non-jobbing allowed Maul to compete with Sidious in sabers, RotJ Luke to destroy Vader, TPM Obi Wan to challenge Maul, etc.