Originally posted by AncientPowerWhy wouldn't it? Sith Spirits grow weaker over time because they expend energy persisting as spirits, with a device to sustain him why would Muur's power diminish?
The Muur Talisman allowed him to permanently persist as a spirit, it hardly maintained his power. The entire point of him trying to convert Luke and Leia was to break free and regain his power, as he himself states.
And he stated that he could use Luke and Leia to "set him free", nothing more.
You're going to have a lot of fun trying to argue that with Deronn, I'm sure.It's not an argument when Plagueis > Vitiate is canon. 🙂 👆
It is stated to store his will/spirit, not sustain his power, it is no different than Kun using the temples to persist. If you have a quote stating his power remained within the Talisman, provide one. Muur himself shows a great interest in the likes of Vader and Krayt so he can possess them and release himself into living form again.
Not canon, never was. Nor does anything else even remotely suggest the same is true. But apparently Thrawn > Palpatine & Kun as a threat is canon to you too.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
A force of nature of course, action with seeming purpose, like the flowering of a plant, or the rise and set of the sun. 👆
Aside from the fact that the sun doesn't rise or set (welcome to the world of narratives) the flowering of a plant has a "purpose" - proliferation of life. That totally doesn't answer various question that I've asked.
Regardless I've been looking for the quote in which its describe as such, and have found it:"...you must understand that not even the Jedi know all there is to be known about the Force; no mortal mind can. We speak of the will of the Force as someone ignorant of gravity might say it is the will of a river to flow to the ocean; it is a metaphor that describes our ignorance. The simple truth - if any truth is ever simple - is that we do not truly know what the will of the Force may be. We can never know. It is so far beyond our limited understanding that we can only surrender to its mystery."
--Obi-Wan Kenobi, Revenge of the Sith novelisation. [I've inserted the quote in that format - Nai.]
So if the Jedi don't even understand the "will of the Force", how is it that you are so certain?
Firstly: I love how quotes are taken out of context here. No surprise in this case, as the original context pretty much serves as a hint to my interpretation of what actually happened
"Very probably. But I have scanned this prophecy; it says only that a chosen one will be born and bring balance to the Force; nowhere does it say he has to be a Jedi."
She blinked harder, fighting down a surge of desperate hope that left her breathless. "He doesn't have to —?"
"My Master, Qui-Gon Jinn, believed that it was the will of the Force that Anakin should be trained as a Jedi — and we all have a certain, oh, I suppose you could call it a Jedi-centric bias. It is a Jedi prophecy, after all."
"But the will of the Force — isn't that what Jedi follow?"
"Well, yes. But you must understand that not even the Jedi know all there is to be known about the Force; no mortal mind can. We speak of the will of the Force as someone ignorant of gravity might say it is the will of a river to flow to the ocean: it is a metaphor that describes our ignorance. The simple truth —if any truth is ever simple — is that we do not truly know what the will of the Force may be. We can never know. It is so far beyondour limited understanding that we can only surrender to its mystery." - Obi-Wan and Padme, RotS Novelization.
As you can see: This supports my idea, that the Force may have had different ideas of "balancing" than the Jedi have.
Secondly: You're obviously getting the text wrong. You do notice that Obi-Wan doesn't call the idea into question that the "will of the Force" exists in a very real sense, but he just says that they can't never know what it is, which means that is possible, that even the Jedi aren't following its will. So the "will of the Force" for the Jedi is a metaphor for the motivating ideals of their order when referring to it in this specific context but not in general as you want to have it.
And thirdly: If nobody can understand the will of the Force, it is entirely possible that it voluntarily shifted for Sidious and Plagueis or even whispered to them that they should try to do that exactly, which was my point in the first place. Thanks for your concession.
And yet Kenobi himself describes the "will of the Force" as a metaphorical not literal, ergo he is being metaphorical here as well.
Context, pal.
Padme makes a statement, that the Jedi serve the will of the Force. Kenobi explains the phrase "will of the Force" to her in that specific context. His answer is essentially, that what the Jedi serve is their intepretation of what the will of the Force could be, since they don't understand it, much like somebody might inteprete other natural phenomena as an expression of a will to do something (e.g. the will of a river to go downhill). But he doesn't deny that the Force has a literal will. He just says that even the Jedi can't comprehend it. This is, essentially, what a priest would say regarding the will / plan of God.
And you could, but you've had no proof that it was the Force itself that had commanded him, or that if it had it did so through sentience.
🙄
What is your definition of "sentience", please?
You know: "sentient" for me means the ability to sense something and be self-conscious. If the Force wasn't "sentient", it could neither notice any form of "imbalance" within itself, nor could it react to restore the balance. If you put a dam in a river, the water doesn't "realize" that it isn't going where it "wants" any longer and it most certainly doesn't "react" by attacking the dam.
No because it's a metaphor.
🙄
It is a metaphor in the way the Jedi utilize the term to describe what they serve and not in general which is evident from the very statement you were quoting, in which Kenobi says that the will of the Force can not be known, which doesn't make much sense, if it was just a metaphor. Furthermore does one statement by Kenobi not make all other allusions to the Force in the sense of an active Force that has a "will" and is "sentient" disappear magically, just because you say "It's a metaphor!"
Metaphor. It's inspired by eastern forms of fighting where metaphorical or even metaphysical energy is allowed to take over the body, letting go of the self and acting on sheer instinct, in this case Force instincts.
Thanks for letting everybody participate in your lack of knowledge regarding eastern fighting forms right next to your lack of reading comprehension. The energy you are referring to, "Qi", is, in general, not viewed as anything "metaphorical" but a real force even capable of affecting the realm of physics (e.g. some people believe that Qi energy is focused through the hand / foot in breaking tests). So thanks for totally debunking yourself.
But do you really believe this omnipotent entity would be so petty as to take sides in a lightsaber duel? Lol.
How do I know what an omnipotent entity does to archive its plans, however those might be looking? It is, as Kenobi said, beyond the grasp of humans. Yet, if you have ever peaked inside the Old Testament, you may find the the omnipotent main character there is capable of rather petty actions, going down to destroying single individuals for not believing in the aforementioned character. So?
Furthermore you're imposing your concept of "entities" (which is rather human-centric) to the Force. As an omnipotent being, it could influence an infinite number of events across the Galaxy at the same time, with that particular lightsaber duel just being one of them. It's not that the perception of some cosmic entity would be limited to a single event at a time. And even time itself might not pose much of a "barrier", provided that glimpses into the future are possible.
I already said what, try reading. To add it would be like describing my antibodies as a "proxy army" against viruses and infections, a perfectly workable metaphor.No literally, I'm failing to see how this demands sentience as opposed to an instinctive reaction. Again antibodies target and kill viruses, are they sentient too? Though of course we're assuming that Plagueis is any more knowledgeable on the "will of the Force" than the Jedi.
This is exactly my point...
Instead of a reaction, that might have been viewed as "instinctive" to get rid of the two Sith - a reaction that at least Plagueis was expecting - the force comes up with Anakin. There is nothing "instinctive" in the creation of a child, that has to be born in a specific place in the universe, grow up under specific circumstances, be found and trained and so on and so forth, until we reach the point where the aforementioned child is in a position to bring balance to the Force again.
The equivalent, in your example, would be, that a human body reacts to a virus by attempting to give birth to a doctor to cure it, predicting every step in his life from his childhood to his medical studies to the very point in time where he finds the cure and shaping events in a way to archive that particular task.
The spirits of dead Force users, and yes I imagine, or the Force priestesses themselves.
"All energy from the Living Force, from all things that have ever lived, feeds into the cosmic Force, binding everything and communicating to us through the midi-chlorians. Because of this, I can speak to you now." - Qui-Gon's spirit to Yoda, Star Wars: The Clone Wars - "Voices".
Who / what is communicating here? The energy from the Living Force. Gosh. Thanks a lot we've clarified that. The Force communicates.
So he was given an accurate vision, so what? That only means this event was very likely to happen.
Because regular Force visions regarding the future are that accurate? Since when? And that the stuff would happen as it was shown was very unlikely. Yet, it did anyway.
The fact that the event was almost definitely going to happen has nothing to do with the Force being sentient. 😬
Oh. It does. Because the only way for the Force to "predict" that events would unfold like that, was to influence them itself. Remember those midi-chlorians whispering the will of the Force to every force user willing to listen? What if those who don't want to listen just don't hear but act according to the will of the Force anyway?
Nah, just metaphorical fluff.
Completely debunked.
When? Ever heard of the Fibonnaci sequence? Lol. It's common knowledge that the natural world is a remarkably complex place, so remarkable in fact that's a commonly used argument for the existence of God. Funny. Just look at our own bodies for example, and the complex means by which it indeed ensures healthy balance and equilibrium, and indeed how it targets and destroys threats to that balance by indeed creating and employing antibodies. Plants too are capable of producing chemical compounds to ward off predators etc. I see the Force as operating in the same way.But nah, I guess God is just giving them pointers. Hallowed Be His Name. mmm
🙄
Apparently, you don't want to see the point or are playing dumb on purpose. Nothing of what you have listed even remotely compares to what the Force was doing to ensure balance. Again: If Sidious and Plagueis had been killed in a way that Plagueis was suggesting (hearts getting stopped etc.), I would have happily shared your ideas of an "action - reaction" pattern going on that doesn't require any form of "will" or "sentience" or "planning". But that's not what happened. What happens is this:
The Force creates Anakin Skywalker, by getting Shmi pregnant. The Force had to choose a mother for that particular task in a particular way. If it were just a power of nature, it would probably have picked either at random, or chosen the most likely "host" to leed to succession (one of the Jedi would have been perfect - at least a mother in safety in Republic space).
By making that very specific choice, the Force had to ensure that events unfold in a very particular fashion to coin Anakin's character on the one hand and to ensure that he gets into Jedi training on the other. Obi-Wan tells Han Solo in "A New Hope" that luck doesn't exist, as far as his experience goes. It's all the Force. You may want to calculate how small the chance was, that a Jedi Master would visit Tatooine, find Anakin and take him away from the planet in order to get him trained.
It is quite unnatural for a "force of nature" not to pick the primrose path and leave the future of the Galaxy to chance, which is, basically, your version of the story...
Sure darling, but sadly no, even the Jedi don't share this sentiment.
Well. They do. And you have quoted it yourself. You're just too damn biased to read it.
In the least sentient and most natural of ways yeah, by producing an agent to neutralise the threat. This happens in nature all the time.
Not like this.
On the other hand if the Force had struck them down with divine justice or rang up the local Jedi police force ("yo yo Sith Lords be at 77 Evil Avenue, cuff em!) you might have a point, but it did not.
Apparently, you can't even get your comparisons right. "Producing an agent to neutralise the threat", to use your wording, would exactly equate either wiping it out directly, via use of midi-chlorians (that you yourself described as "antibodies"😉 or to alarm the local "police force" to deal with the threat (same example in your metaphor). Maybe you want to get your ideas straight, before attempting to argue.
I don't really know exactly what or why you're asking, because they wanted to become powerful?
They already were powerful. And "Darth Plagueis" doesn't give us any motivation for that deed at all. It's essentially a "Oh. By the way. We unbalanced the Force and risked our lives in the process. We got more powerful. Yay!" Seriously?