Nai, I’d like to start by saying that I genuinely don’t care about your superiority complex-induced rants. If you want a bitch-fest, I’m sure Tempest would be more than happy to take you up on that. Or if you’re insulting others to compensate for your insecurities, our resident psychiatrist ILS is your guy. I’m just here to debate Star Wars, ‘kay?
Nope.I find it rather awkward, that people don’t get, what effects the separation between (Disney) „Canon“ and „Legends“ means for the Star Wars Expanded Universe. There is no department checking the consistency of the “Legends” publications any longer, because they are, essentially, non-canon anyways. As such, they don’t operate within the same reference frame any longer, meaning that they are solely dependent on themselves and just reference themselves.
Now why would the “opening crawl” of a compilation of comics from 2006 take Vitiate into consideration when judging the relative status of Sidious among the Sith Lords? From a 2006 perspective it doesn’t make sense, because Vitiate didn’t exist yet. From a 2015 perspective it doesn’t make sense, because Vitiate isn’t “canon” any longer. Which means that the only reference frame which is to be assumed for the source is the new (Disney) canon: Movies, TV Shows, new material, end of story. And in those, Sidious – as of now – is pretty much the undisputed “most powerful Sith”, because all other Sith in the current canon are his own apprentices.
Legends Epic Collection is a Legends publication, same as TOR, lmao. It doesn’t adhere to Disney’s Canon in the slightest, and it being published after the Disney takeover doesn’t change that.
Note the word LEGENDS on the front cover. Are you seriously going to argue it’s Canon simply because of its release date? If so, then I guess The Old Republic epic collection must be Canon as well because of its release date, and Vitiate existed during the events of the comics. Choose one or the other. Either way, the opening crawl, despite being written for a collection of 2006 comics, was still written in 2015 when Vitiate existed. It’s a republishing of old comics with newer continuity taken into consideration. The statement acknowledges Vitiate.
The back cover of the novel does only refer to the content of the novel and not the overall “canon” of the Star Wars universe, in which factual evidence contradicts the claim the back cover makes, since Vitiate/Valkorion is far beyond both Sidious and Plagueis, when it comes to “power over life and death”, demonstrated by his actions.
How do you know? Because you say so? Legends is a single, unified continuity. You’re making up your own rules about canon here.
Who achieved greater immortality isn’t a fact and has never been. You just pretend so because of your superiority complex. It remains a matter of interpretation that is a discussion for another time.
That aside: According to James Luceno, Plagueis would have defeated his apprentice in a straight fight. So if you want to use authorial intent, it is Plagueis > Sidious.
I’m not going by authorial intent here. The statement at the back of the blurb isn’t Luceno’s – or anyone’s – opinion; it’s an objective declaration.
I wonder how I’m a hypocrite, when I dismissed the reliability of character quotes instantly. You have still dodged the point, though: Why would somebody cover up the act of hundreds / thousands of Sith giving their lives for the best of the Empire voluntarily?
I don’t know, nor do I need to for Nyriss’ tale to be invalid. Said herself she can’t confirm if it’s true or not, and that’s enough for me.
Holy mother of reading comprehension fails. Did you just present an interpretation of the stuff following as Yoda using the Dark Side. Seriously? He is trying to see through the clouding of the Dark Side which is what Mace Windu views as dangerous. He does not use a Dark Side version of a force power. Good god, dude. Learn how to read and utilize logic.
Every single PT Jedi meditation session is an attempt to see through the clouding of the dark side, lol. What Yoda attempted is clearly something different and it doesn’t require much thought from the reader to figure out it involves using the dark side, if one simply reads these words:
”And only those who have turned to the Dark Side can sense the possibilities of the future. Only going through the Dark Side can we see.”
Yoda clearly says only darksiders can see the future. Emphasis on “only”. If Yoda very clearly knows that it is impossible for him as a lightsider to see the future, then why would he attempt the normal method? If you utilize your precious logic that you constantly brag about, you’d realize he’s using some sort of dark side variant of Force sight. This is supported by Mace Windu describing it as “dangerous” (the risk of Yoda falling to the dark side), and Yoda viewing it as his only option and a last resort (normal meditation has failed numerous times).
But of course, as we know, Yoda failed, from which we can conclude that Sidious was not only clouding the light side, but the Force as a whole. And as can be read from the quote a posted in one of my previous posts, he did this with his personal power. That is far beyond Vitiate’s ability to do.
I could counter the stuff point by point again, but it is simply useless: What Vitiate did on Nathema and later Ziost is far more impressive than what Sidious did with Byss. Because draining entire worlds dry, absorbing the power, in the matter of days is still more impressive slowly feeding on some energy from the population of a planet. And utilizing people as puppets is also more impressive than luring them somewhere or making them stay somewhere.
Sidious also used the people of Byss as puppets. And more impressively than Vitiate, his hold over them was far more subtle, yet just as effective. Not only are they described as living in a “dreamlike state”, implying they don’t know what is going on, they also don’t glow like magic zombies. Contrast this with the reactions of the people freed from Vitiate’s control and you’ll see that they were fully aware of what they were doing. Sidious also set them to do far more complex tasks than simply mindless slaughter:
Servants of the Imperial war machine toil until exhaustion building starships and droids, while bureaucrats and businessmen ensure that the financial aspects of the Empire continue to cover production costs. There is almost no one on the entire planet whose life doesn't revolve around making the Empire function in some manner.
-Byss and the Deep Core
What is described above requires much more concentration, precision, thought, intelligence, knowledge of electronics, physics, mathematics, financing, economics etc. than swinging swords or firing guns.
And Vitiate has never been outright stated or seen as controlling the entire populace. His domination is canonically noted to be “gradual” and even in-game we see completely normal non-Force sensitives who’re not under Vitiate’s influence. Controlling an entire planet > controlling half a planet.
Another indication of Sidious’ superiority is the fact that Vitiate was literally incapable of dominating unconscious people. There’s no reason to assume Sidious shares the same limitation.
And the nail in the coffin is that Sidious did all of that from across the galaxy while going about his day-to-day life on Coruscant. Now please tell me how Vitiate compares, cause I’m not seeing it in the slightest.
As for the draining, it was implied Vitiate was unable to drain the people of Ziost passively, hence the need for mass genocide. And if he knew how to, he’d have plenty of reason to do so, given that he isn’t in any sort of hurry, and according to himself, he possesses “the patience of stone”, so it’s not a matter of time or patience. It would’ve far harder for the Republic and the Empire to interfere with his plans if he could’ve simply passively drained them. He might not have even alerted them to his presence in the first place.
And as we know, Vitiate had to be present on the planet to accomplish the draining; Sidious could be anywhere in the galaxy and still be successful.
As for the Death Field, while it is true Sidious never pulled it off, it's also true he never even attempted it. He's been canonically confirmed to know the ability in Book of the Sith and after just comparing their respective power in basic Drain, it's apparent Sidious is Vitiate's superior in that regard, so why should Death Field - which is an aspect of Drain - be excluded from that? If you claim he can't do it, it's up to you to prove that - with no appeals to ignorance, please.
To summarize, Vitiate requires maximum effort to pull off a feat infinitely inferior to something Sidious does with a subconscious thought. And that is a version of Vitiate stronger than the one in this thread – the one from the Revan novel.
The point is that they can’t be killed very easily and Vitiate still did do the job, while not even being present physically, which implies that he is powerful enough to get rid of a single target in direct confrontation, regardless of who the target is. And since your “point” is based on the attempt to talk down those Dark Council members, you don’t have any point.
I wasn’t attempting to “talk down” the Dark Council members. My point is that they don’t compare to Sidious, hence Vitiate killing them doesn’t mean he can beat Sidious.
In a similar fashion, I could call anybody ever defeated by Sidious "fodder" in order to talk down his abilities. Does it make sense to you to label Maul or Vader "fodder"?
If neither Maul or Vader compare to Vitiate or Sidious, then yes, we can call them fodder in the context of this battle, since beating them doesn’t translate into beating beings on a far higher level unless the gap can somehow be quantified.
Erm. Dark Council members had to constantly expect attacks on their lives, just based on their very position:”The powerful few who join the council often serve for only a few months, their lives cut short by internal power struggles or external enemies who target them for assassination.” – SWTORE, p.172.
So the idea of them stumbling through the capital of the Sith Empire entirely unprotected appears to be a little bit off.
Well, obviously they weren’t “entirely unprotected”, but I doubt any of them had ever been the victim of a blast attack out of nowhere, and thus couldn’t have been expecting one.
How many of those resulted in the instantaneous death of 12 powerful Dark Side users and were executed from a remote location? You are still dodging the main point: If Vitiate can, apparently casually, break through the force defenses of a dozen powerful individuals at once and kill them instantly what stops him from doing the same to one individual. Do you honestly think that Sidious could take down a dozen individuals like Nyriss, Marr or Thanaton at once. Because I seriously doubt it, given that he fails to overpower a single Dark Side witch like Mother Talzin.
Based on what did Vitiate do it casually? The fact that he’s never used a similar attack ever indicates it is not casual and probably not applicable in combat.
But no, none of the examples have resulted in the deaths of 12 Sith. This blast killed a bit more, though:
Just in case you don’t know: the little girl who casually tanked the explosion would go on to become the Dark Lord Darth Zannah, someone who is massively inferior to either combatant Vitiate and Revan are facing:
For a millennium, the Sith maintained the order in secrecy, passing down their evil heritage. As they gained knowledge of the dark side of the Force, their powers increased with each generation.
-Episode 1: The Phantom Menace Scrapbook
Ultimately, Bane's plan produced more powerful Sith Lords with every generation.
-Force and Destiny
For a thousand years we continued to follow Bane's Rule of Two, existing in the shadows, biding our time, growing in power, feeding our hatred. Darth Sidious proved to be the splendid culmination of a thousand years of Sith philosophy and teachings.
-Insider #88: Heritage of the Sith
"Bane's power has been passed down for a thousand years. I vow to be its last recipient."
-Darth Sidious, Book of Sith: Secrets from the Dark Side
The Sith have waited millennium for the birth of one who is powerful enough to return them from hiding. Darth Sidious is that one—the Sith's revenge on the Jedi order for having nearly eradicated the practitioners of the dark side of the Force.
-The Complete Visual Dictionary
The Sith Order, in hiding for a millennium, had awaited the birth of one who was powerful enough to return the Order to prominence. Darth Sidious was the fulfillment of that prophecy, capable of exacting the Sith's revenge on the Jedi for having nearly eradicated the practitioners of the dark side of the Force.
-The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia
Darth Sidious proved to be the grim culmination of a thousand years of Sith philosophy and teachings.
-Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force
When the Sith finally emerged from a thousand years of watching and waiting, they numbered—in accordance with the tradition set down by Darth Bane—only two. The most powerful of these was Darth Sidious, an ice-cold, diabolically calculating genius equipped with the strength of the dark side of the Force, as well as an enormous wealth of Sith artifacts, equipment, and knowledge.
-The Dark Side Sourcebook
One simply has to connect the dots. Now please tell me what Vitiate is going to do once his attacks fail to do any damage at all.
As said above: The fact that he can do that against a dozen powerful Dark Siders does heavily imply, that he wouldn’t have much problem of doing the same to asingle opponent. The way he pretty much casually destroys Revan once he puts his entire power to action would suggest that Sidious doesn’t stand much of a chance here.
Except when there’s never been instance where a singular opponent of his has disappeared in a flash of light, lol. If he truly was capable of basically blinking Revan and co. out of existence, then why did they have a very decent shot at taking him down?
And simply because he put Revan on his ass, does not mean he will do so to Sidious, as you’ve failed to make any kind of comparison between Revan and Sidious to demonstrate the former’s superiority. And might I add Vitiate only accomplished this feat on one of the greatest DS nexi in the mythos; he’s featless on neutral ground. I’ve no reason to believe someone like Revan couldn’t have simply ragdolled him, given that his only claim to fame on neutral ground is being “infinitely more powerful” than Darth Nyriss, someone’s whose best feat is supposedly being able to turn a guy who can beat droids into ash.
Plagueis thoughts serves as the only source for what happened regarding the unbalancing. And I’m not doubting Sidious thoughts, but your interpretation of those, given that you ignore the fact, that Sidious isn’t really confident about what he thinks and the fact that your interpretation contradicts facts.
So you’re not doubting Sidious’ thoughts – him musing the Force shifted even further after his ascension – but you then claim they ignore facts? What facts? Where is the idea of Sidious unbalancing the Force contradicted, other than in your own head? Are those the “facts” you’re referring to?
So do you believe Sidious or not? Start making some sense.
Since you were utilizing the balance shifting as “pro Sidious” argument, when it also has nothing to do with combat, I was inclined to answer with the similar – but more impressive – stuff Vitiate has done.
Except shifting the balance of the Force with your personal power is obviously combat-related, lol.
I can only repeat my question, why you are trying to argue against established facts based on nothing. The Force didn’t try to resist. That’s a fact, stated one of the two persons participating in the process. End of story. It probably took months, because the two Sith weren’t exactly knowing what they were doing, just what they were trying to archive. It’s not as if they had a “how to shift the balance of the Force manual” to follow, did they?
Again, what facts? Them musing the Force didn’t resist after it had been unbalanced and after it had yielded? Lmao.
The shift had been the outcome of months of intense meditation, during which Plagueis and Sidious had sought to challenge the Force for sovereignty and suffuse the galaxy with the power of the dark side. Brazen and shameless, and at their own mortal peril, they had waged etheric war, anticipating that their own midi-chlorians, the Force’s proxy army, might marshal to boil their blood or stop the beating of their hearts. Risen out of themselves, discorporate and as a single entity, they had brought the power of their will to bear, asserting their sovereignty over the Force. No counterforce had risen against them. In what amounted to a state of rapture they knew that the Force had yielded, as if some deity had been tipped from its throne. On the fulcrum they had fashioned, the light side had dipped and the dark side had ascended.
-Darth Plagueis
And based on what did they not know what they were doing? Are you arguing they didn’t know how to meditate? That’s the only thing they did during the entire unbalancing. Are you saying they only figured out how to meditate towards the end if the unbalancing and when they did, the Force just suddenly shifted on a galactic scale? Lmao.
The fact that the Force is described as having “yielded” implies there was some sort of struggle just by itself. And it is supported by the fact that the Sith’s meditation is described as “intense” and literally took months.
Based on logic and reason. And I don’t know, what is so hard to grasp here.Arguing that one could use the Force to influence the Force against the will of the Force doesn’t make any sense. It’s like arguing one could slap God the face,utilizing his own hand, without him wanting that. Does that make sense to you?
Um, yes. Mortals killing gods is a fictional concept present in many franchises. Are you going to go and dismiss all of Kratos’ or Goku’s feats based on your “logic and reason”? Lol. There’s no reason to believe the Force is like the Christian definition God, omnipotent and invincible. It isn’t stated anywhere except in your head. You can continue to preach about your views on the will of the Force, but absolutely nothing you say will prove the Force cannot be challenged by mortal Force users who have the strength of will to do it.
This is not what I’m suggesting. It is, essentially, what the novel states itself. The two Sith do the job despitebeing aware of the risks. And yet, the Force doesnothing to stop them. Under which circumstances does that make sense? As far as I am concerned, theinterpretation would be, that everything happenedexactly as wanted by the Force:1)
Sidious and Plagueis were not developing the idea to unbalance the Force out of nowhere, as it does actually happen in the novel. There is no reason given for the attempt to do so, no motivation, no explanation. It’s as if the Sith just got up one day and thought, that this would be a good idea. As if some tiny voice inside their heads had whispered what they should do next – and they followed. Remember what Qui-Gon taught Anakin about listening to the Force in TPM?2)
Motivated to do so, the two Sith do exactly what the Force has “incepted” into them: Unbalance the Force.Despite the fact, that they assume that the Force can (and will) end them at any given point in time. Seriously. Why would they do something like that?3)
The Force offers no resistance and then “gives in”, strengthening the Sith and weakening the Jedi.4)
The Force creates Anakin, the ultimate instrument of balance. Instead of being conceived by a woman in the Republic, where Anakin would have been found by the Jedi and have been trained (and indoctrinated) in their ways from infancy on, the Force makes sure that the boy is born into slavery, where he grows up with some kindling of darkness already within him.5)
The Force itself via “fate” or utilizing Sidious is ensuring that Anakin moves further towards the Dark Side. Just think for a moment, how suicidal it is for Sidious, to want Anakin as his “apprentice”. Even manipulating Vader, he knows that he can’t control him forever. He outright tells Yoda, that Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of them. Despite of that, he orchestrates Anakin’s fall to the Dark Side, with some nice assistance: Did anybody ever ask, why the Tusken would capture and torture Shmi Skywalker exactly? Killing her in a raid – okay. But this? And then, in a twist of fate, Anakin arrives on the spot to witness his mother’s death. He could have saved her earlier. He probably wouldn’t have snappe the way he did, if he had arrived later. What a perfect timing that was on a galactic scale. And who could arrange that?6)
The Force uses Anakin to first ensure the downfall of the Jedi Order and the destruction of the Sith afterwards. Balance restored.You see: If the goal was, just to get rid of the Sith, the Force could have chosen the Jedi Path for Anakin from the beginning. It didn’t.
As good an attempt to make the plot of Star Wars make sense as this was, it is ultimately baseless speculation and none of it proves the Sith didn’t bend the Force to their will. You should have posted this on some fan theory forum, not a VS forum.
I’m starting to detest your attempts at literature interpretation.Vitiate was only using “a fraction” of his power and, yet, the two fallen Jedi “succumbed utterly” to it. That Revan was able to “resist” it later is explained in the novel:
“I can shield my mind from being dominated by his will, and I can show you how to do the same.” – Revan.
He has found a way to do this because he was a victim of Vitiate before. All other succumb to his power, because they were not and not just because they “lack willpower”, which is hardly an explanation for Revan getting dominated by Vitiate.
Except that Lana Beniko could resist Vitiate despite never having been his victim, and even after, she still had no idea how the technique worked:
”We need to understand the connection Vitiate established with this Jedi so we can stop it or exploit it.”
Apparently strength of will is all that’s required. While it is true that Lana had prep and would most likely have been dominated by Vitiate otherwise, this just proves my point even further that Revan and Malak were utterly caught off-guard, not expecting a mental attack. Another reason for their easy defeat was indeed the fact that they were already at the precipice of the dark side, so obviously turning them to the dark side – which was Vitiate’s goal – was much easier:
By the time Revan and Malak approached the Emperor in his throne room, they were already at the precipice of the dark side. It took only a fraction of the Emperor’s loathsome power to complete their fall. The Jedi succumbed utterly to the Sith leader's domination and returned to the Republic to spark a new conflict: the Jedi Civil War.
-The Old Republic Encyclopedia
I don’t see why this is so hard to grasp. To quote the Joker: “Madness is like gravity. All it takes is a little push.” It would have taken a more than “a little push” or I guess in this case, “a fraction”, if they were pure lightsiders. This is not a point in favor of Vitiate; there is absolutely no evidence Vitiate could have dominated them if they had been prepared for it.
I’m still marveling about this entire “Dark Side nexus” mumbo-jumbo. We don’t knowanything about the strength of the effects a Dark Side nexus might have on somebody who utilizes the Dark Side. So yourassumption that it would “balance out” the lack of an actual body and being freshly resurrected is without basis. As is the idea, that a Dark Side nexus would significantlyboost the powers of a Dark Sider. And I find it especially stupid to bring that up, when arguing in favor for a person, who performed all of his feats benefitting from an unbalanced force, which probably trumps any Dark Side nexus when it comes down to “boosting abilities”.
What? The effects of dark side nexi have been established since 2001 (possibly even earlier):
Some areas, like some beings, are strong in the dark side. They resonate with corrupt energy. These places emanate evil and darkness, creating cold spots in the Force that disturb those who are sensitive to the energy that binds the galaxy together. For those who draw upon the dark side, these spots serve as wells of power that can sometimes be tapped for greater effect.
-Dark Side Sourcebook
And given that the amount Vitiate was weakened and the strength of the Ziost nexus are unquantifiable, the simplest conclusion is that they balance each other out.
And I wonder how Sidious would benefit from such an unbalancing when he himself was the unbalancing. It travels with him wherever he goes, it’s part of his personal power in the Force.
Which is, once again, drawing (false) conclusions out of nowhere. Where does Sidious ever “resist” Plagueis? Where does Plagueis ever utilized mind-control evenremotely as powerful as that of Vitiate. And how would Sidious training affect his ability to resist that kind of mind-domination anyway? If Revan, who had nothing to learn from the Jedi of his age any longer, was incapable of resisting the effect, despite of his raw power, training and willpower, I seriously doubt that Sidious can do the job.
Sheev resists Hego here:
They got up from the bench and began to amble back toward the university complex. Plagueis submerged himself deeply in the Force to study Palpatine, but he was unable to glean very much. Humans were difficult to read in the easiest of cases, and Palpatine’s mind was awash in conflict. So much going on in that small brain, Plagueis told himself. So much emotional current and self-interest. So unlike the predictable, focused intellects of the Outer Rim sentients, especially the hive-minded among them.
-Darth Plagueis
As you can see from the text, Plagueis is drawing “deeply” on the Force, meaning he’s really trying. And although Plagueis has never used mind control like Vitiate, I don’t see how that will be an issue for Sidious since Vitiate would need to get inside his head in the first place, in which someone who was contending with God in a battle of wills failed to do. And unlike Revan, Sidious apparently doesn’t need any sort of prep to resist anyone as shown above, when he resisted Plagueis without even knowing he was a Force user, only discovering that later. All this would suggest it was instinctual, part of Sidious’ very nature. Plagueis also made the same observation:
Had this human truly been born of flesh-and-blood parents? Plagueis asked himself. When, in fact, he seemed sprung from nature itself. Was the Force so strong in him that it had concealed itself?
-Darth Plagueis
And Sith training from someone possessing millenia of Sith lore would logically include mental techniques. He also studied the writings of Darth Bane, which included numerous psychic techniques. Not that Sidious needs those, but them alongside with the scaling from Bane and Zannah are supporting evidence solidifying the notion that Vitiate has no chance to get inside Sidious’ head.
Neither instance does even show him using telepathy. The first is just an interpretation of Yoda’s state of being, the latter is a vision / illusion. How is that even remotely comparable to turning people into mindless puppets dominated by your will? Then you’re arguing in circles, by assuming that Yoda is far more powerful than Vitiate (which I find rather laughable) in order to proof that Sidious – Yoda’s “equal” – is more powerful than Vitiate.
Lol, yes it is. In the first one Yoda tries to hide his emotions but cannot do so because Sidious is too powerful. That’s literally stated in the text. I’ve no idea what “interpretations” you’re on about.
And in the second one, it’s not the illusion itself that was my point (although it is impressive regardless), but that Sidious literally caged Yoda’s mind inside it.
And I don’t get why you’re so obsessed with mind control. The first step in all TP techniques is getting inside the opponent’s head. Only after that can you choose what techniques to employ. Simply because Vitiate has used mind control on Force users and Sidious hasn’t doesn’t prove he’s the more powerful telepath. Sidious knows the technique as evidenced by his Byss feat and has successfully probed equally powerful Force users as himself. And Yoda being canonically as powerful as Sidious means he’s indeed more powerful than Vitiate, who falls under the jurisdiction of the massive pile of quotes declaring Sidious the most powerful Sith Lord ever.
And Vitiate lacks any sort of mental resistance feat, and was duped by Revan as badly as that stormtrooper in ANH, which also helps Sidious’ chances here.
Pardon me. I have arguments, where you are just tossing your ridiculous attempts at literature interpretation in, make baseless assumption and argue in circles. Come back when you make sense.
I know you like to think you’re hot shit but your only rebuttal to my question was an argument from ignorance, a fallacy.
He has been “mentally influenced” by a person that mind he invaded whenever he saw fit for 300 years, while underestimating him at the same time. So really. Did you want to present “proof” for the idea that Sidious, after getting turned into a puppet, could maybe convince Vitiate of the idea not to kill him? Because that’s about as far as you get with that example.
What do you mean “underestimating” Revan? He was constantly trying to probe information out of him with the aid of the Dread Masters, and Revan not only resisted, but ripped knowledge from Vitiate in return and forced him to delay his invasion of the Republic and propose peace with the Treaty of Coruscant. And he never even knew Revan was tampering with his mind. I don’t even know what you’re trying to argue here, lmao. That Vitiate “underestimating” Revan (which is completely baseless and your own head-canon) invalidates his pathetic showing against the latter? Lmao. He was dominated like a cheap whore. No ifs or buts about it.
Which is all the more beneficial for Sidious here, who will have Vitiate begging for death after experiencing his mind.
He did actively suppress their knowledge of being his children and he did “listen in” on all of them at the same time, which would require some not so easily imaginable mental capacities in the first place. And he still was suppressing Vaylin at the same time and controlled his second host body (with all its power) on Zakuul. And he was completely controlling the “possessed” population of Ziost later, which were – literally – dozens or hundreds (maybe even thousands) of individuals at the same time.
Source for him actively suppressing their thoughts? Fair enough on the rest, though that still doesn’t compare to clouding the minds of 10 000 Jedi and dominating millions of people from across the galaxy, casually.
And the iteration in this thread has done nothing of the above. His best feat is scaring Scourge. He’ll be stomped here.
Which Sidious never did with any kind of active ability. The only thing even remotelycoming close to a feat like that, is the ritual that he conducted in “Sith’isis”. But then, influencing the minds of all Jedi in the Galaxy via a ritual kind of pales in comparison to a ritual that drains all Force energy in the Galaxy.
Yes, he did. I’ve provided evidence.
How exactly are you attempting to make a point by comparing force powers – even the same force power – when used differently?
Not sure what you mean here. What I’m saying is that Tutaminis isn’t Force lightning, which should be obvious.
Apparently, you didn’t just miss literature interpretation in school, but also skipped physics class. Lightsaber blades are energy / plasma beams. How much “force” is required to “bend” those exactly? How is the strength of the wielder even a factor, provided those blades are weightless and can, therefore, generate next to no momentum from mentioned physical strength? Again, your comparing apples to oranges and again, your interpretation doesn’t make sense.You don’t need any kind of super powerful energy lightning to mess around with a lightsaber blade. At least nothing that even remotely compares to the energy required to instantly burn people into ash.
We don’t even know whether they are plasma or not, since they’re fictional weapons. And their status as fictional weapons means you can’t apply real-life physics to them.
Lightsabers bending literally never happens outside that one scene. Ever. Even Vitiate, who was “infinitely more powerful” than Darth Nyriss who can reduce people to charred corpses, had his bolts easily deflected by Revan’s lightsaber. So your argument is void, and Sidious remains the king of Force Lightning.
Ah. Yes. Not that making a droid “explode into a million pieces” with TK isn’t impressive. He was still boiling Revan’s skin and superheating Revan’s mask within split seconds of hitting him. Sidious just x-rays people.
“Just x-rays people”, lol. And what proof do you have that Revan is more durable than Mace? What proof do you have that Revan would be “just x-ray’d” by Sidious and not ashed?
And Sidious gets scaling from Bane, who can turn people to ash and disintegrate half a dozen droids with a Force Wave. Your examples of Vitiate’s strength don’t come close to putting him above Sidious. Do you even have proof that Vitiate could pull any of the stuff off on neutral ground?
Didn’t I state already, that ipsedixitism doesn’t win arguments? “Because I say so” is not a valid point and, gosh, that is about as far you got here.
I know you’re smarter than this, Nai. Stop acting retarded and at least try to counter the argument I provided as proof of my claim.
Let’s accept that idea that it happened then. We’re once again confronted with your inability to read texts. Where is the lightning thrown back into Sidious face? It “bents back towards the Emperor”, yes. But apparently, it merely stays between Yoda and Sidious – much like in the final stage of the duel – instead of “hitting” Sidious (which is the interpretation you came up with ex nihilo). So?
Um, maybe just the words “It looks as if the Dark Lord is doomed” in the script would imply that it hit Sidious? And if the energy had been staying between the combatants, there would’ve been an explosion. Instead, only Yoda was knocked back. So if Sidious wasn’t deflecting the energy, then the only other explanation is that he just let them hit him, unless you want to argue they somehow missed him, but that would be far more baseless than my interpretation. Sidious tanked his own lightning – more powerful than Vitiate’s – like it was nothing. Vitiate cannot kill him.
Yeah. The RotS Commentary is still the higher canon:” These close up shots where Palpatine is getting the Force lightning reflected back, and he's getting zapped, and the strain of all of this exertion is what's transforming him into the Emperor that we see later in Return of the Jedi.”
Emphasis mine.
He’s excerting himself with generating the lightning that is thrown back into his face and he’s getting zapped. Highest level of canon. So he was damaged by getting his own lightning thrown back in his face which – even if it doesn’t contradict the novel – it clearly does contradict your interpretation of the novel. Maybe a little bit of reading comprehension would be nice to have before attempting to argue literature, huh?
Reading comprehension indeed. Nowhere does it say that the lightning itself was the source of the “damage” but rather the strain of him exerting himself, maybe due to him attempting to fire high intensity lightning, keep up Force shields to prevent it from killing him, and keeping up the mask at the same time? And it was a mask; your “higher canon” does not contradict this notion.
As we see from Sithisis, the alchemical mask is a complex technique that required a Sith ritual to put on. It appears to be out of Sidious’ personal power/skill range to put it on on the fly, so it would make sense for him to sacrifice it for the lightning and shields. Insider 83 also seems to share my thoughts on the scene:
[It’s] the intensity of reflected lightning and the channeling of such raw dark side power that are the catalysts for Palpatine’s transformation. Perhaps the face that boils up to the surface is shaped by his dark side corruption, but the lightning is definitely the cause.
So the lightning that hits him is not the only cause of the so-called damage to his face, but also the “channelling of such raw dark side power” (aka him using Force lightning at an immense potency) being a catalyst for his transformation supports my (and the commentary’s) interpretation that it was the strain of exertion (being unable to use the three powers at once) that caused the transformation, and not because the lightning actually hurt him. The lightning doesn’t do him any damage in either scene (Yoda and Mace fights), so there’s no contradiction. The feat is legit and Sidious can tank his own Force lightning no problem, making him unkillable to Vitiate.
The fact that a blast of Sidious accumulated power is just enough to throw Yoda and Sidious a few meters backwards is so utterly laughable, that you’re just reaching now. If the “explosion” had caused any structural damage to the podium, your petty “interpretation” would make sense. But it doesn’t. It merely throws the opponents backwards – and not even far. And even assuming, that they were protected by their respective force defense, the result isn’t impressive. And your “conclusion” here is just a joke.
Not sure what you’re so upset about here. My interpretation makes perfect logical sense; Sidious’ standard Force lightning is not enough to push either of them backwards as demonstrated when Sidious tanked it without issue and when Yoda absorbed it into his palm and was not hurled back. The explosion, however, did, so logically, it must be more powerful than Sidious’ Force lightning. The pod not receiving any structural damage may have simply been an oversight on part of the filmmakers or the pod is simply very durable. If there’s no way to know, then it’s not a valid excuse to dismiss my points.
And I’d also like to retract my concession regarding the Yoda part; Insider 86 stated the following:
Wheless' team worked out three key poses to tell the story:
1) Yoda and Darth Sidious lock lightsabers
2) Yoda is forced back by Sidious' power, and grimaces in pain
3) Yoda uses all his strength to push Sidious back
So Yoda does indeed pour “all his strength” into the blast, intending to knock Sidious backward. It’s a culmination of both combatants’ energy, not just Sidious’ lightning, which makes it even more powerful. And just because they were not flown very far is merely a good showing for them that they could take such an attack without further damage, and doesn’t in any way prove the explosion was weak.
It is fairly obvious to anybody who reads the source material without having a massive Sidious induced boner that drains all the blood from his brain, which appears to be the case with you.
So, just your head-canon. Gotcha.
First: You may want to read the comic. They are cutting his connection to the Force storm off, which is then going out of control and consumes him.Secondly: Even following your great “interpretation”, you’d still have the example of Ulic Qel-Droma, who was cut off from the force by Nomi Sunrider and yet, he still became a spirit. D’uh.
The comic says Sidious was separated from his power. There’s no reason to assume this is limited to the Force Storm. I do wonder how one would restrict the use of only a single Force power.
Fair enough on the Qel-Droma part.
No shit, Sherlock. Sidious managed to retain his identity, which is, essentially, what becoming a force spirits means, contrasted with entering the netherworld of the Force. This is, clearly, nothing unique there.
Fair enough.
Aside from putting “omniscient beings” on one level with Sidious (LMAO), I’ve already destroyed the idea, that those are truly omniscient, as you may want to read above. Furthermore: Again your interpretation of the source material is utterly wrong.
Fair enough.
Really, kid. So Vitiate has no chance against Sidious, because Sidious managed to survive the destruction of his body. Erm. Do you maybe want to think that one over. Because, you know, you are comparing Sidious to the guy who doesn’t just always return when his physical body gets destroyed, but who also becomes stronger each time somebody “defeats” him.
Sidious gets stronger every time he comes back as well. This is not an advantage for Vitiate, especially novel Vitiate, who doesn’t even know Essence Transfer.
Soon he was ready to strike. Fully healed and in greater control of the Dark Side than ever, he finally acted to end the Mutiny.
-Dark Empire Sourcebook
Within a new clone body, the Emperor was more powerful than ever.
-Handbook 3: Dark Empire
http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/5508280-4587783110-52834.png
So according to objective statements and one from Leia (which there’s no reason to doubt), Sidious became more powerful after each time he came back, just like Vitiate. But this is irrelevant, really, as neither of them know Essence Transfer at this point. Just something I thought I’d address.
You may want to go check the timeline, kid. Not that it matters anyway. If Anakin was created before the unbalancing, that’s an argument for my side, as it proves that the force did act rather than react.
Indeed I have, and it is impossible for Anakin to have been born during the time period of the meditation. Fellow user DarthAnt66 can offer you more information. However, this is not an argument for your side, as you were arguing that Anakin is proof that Sidious and Plagueis never managed to bend the Force to their will, which is untrue, since Anakin was created before the Force was unbalanced.
It in fact makes Plagueis and Sidious even more impressive, if the Force felt they were such a threat to its balance even before they did their meditation thing, that a literal living plot device was needed to destroy them. Plagueis in particular, as he was the one primarily tampering with midi-chlorians, the very building blocks of the Force. The Force never took such drastic measures when Vitiate, and even Valkorion, was at the height of his power. It didn’t create a godlike Force user to destroy Valkorion. It felt that Plagueis was much more dangerous individual than Valkorion would ever be.
You’re still not getting the point. Maybe I need to explain it in an even easier fashion for you:1)
The Force could have stopped the process of unbalancing at any given point in time, as was said by Plagueis himself. It decided not to.
“Anticipate” does not necessarily mean that one is expecting it to happen, as I’ve already explained in my previous posts – a point which you failed to respond to.
2)
Even after the unbalancing, the Force – and here is the crux – is still an omnipotent entity with an own will and could still have exterminated the Sith on its own. It decidednot to.
Head-canon.
3)
The Force could have made Anakin the “perfect Jedi” by ensuring that he was conceived within Republic space, under which circumstances he would have been discovered by the Jedi Order and trained from infancy on. The Force decided not to do it that way.
Which doesn’t prove me wrong in the slightest.
I could even make it more basic for you: Your idea, that Sidious and Plagueis had any kind of sovereignty over the Force is directly contradicted by the fact, that the Force could muster a way bring them down again.
If you’re referring to Anakin, you’re wrong (see above). If you mean something else, head-canon.
---
Now, to summarize:
Revan and Vitiate are hopelessly, hilariously, outclassed. Darth Plagueis boasts an accolade claiming him to be stronger than any Sith before him. The Force also saw him as such a threat that it had to create a being specifically designed to destroy the Sith, the most powerful Force wielder imaginable. He’s presented to be a far more powerful being than either of the two.
Then we have Darth Sidious, who is even more powerful than Plagueis, as per a myriad of omniscient statements. He also accomplished in seconds what Plagueis accomplished in months with the aid of an equally powerful Sith – unbalancing the Force. It could be possible that he’s even more powerful than Plagueis and 42BBY Sidious combined – that is to say, two Plagueis’ – in the Force because of this feat. Whereas Plagueis was a threat to the balance of the Force, Sidious literally was an unbalancing, a walking galaxy-wide dark side nexus.
As for other feats, he outclasses both Revan and Vitiate so much it’s not even funny. Vitiate’s best feat, the devastation of Ziost, is massively outdone by Sidious’ Byss feat. And that’s a version of Vitiate far more powerful than the one in this thread, so that feat cannot be used. In fact, none of his feats cannot be used, as they were pulled off on a massive dark side nexus. We have no idea how powerful he is without that amp. And as he doesn’t have that amp in this thread, you literally cannot use any of his feats. They are all invalid. In other words, he’s featless. No reason to believe why he wouldn’t be one-shot by anyone in this thread, Revan included.
And speaking of Revan, he doesn’t compare either. He was one-shot by a nexus-amped Vitiate, who’s inferior to TOR Vitiate, who’s inferior to Valkorion, who’s inferior to Plagueis, who’s inferior to Sidious. It’s not a contest. Either Plagueis or Sidious solo in a single Force attack.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Revan being more powerful than Ulic Qel-Droma, Thon, or Nomi Sunrider can imagine (they've seen Exar Kun when amped with thousands of Massassi) >>> Banite scaling.Frankly, doing an accoalde comparison against Revan will yield him as the winner 99.99% of the time.
Lol, you're taking hyperbole seriously. Pre-prime Exar Kun was the darkest power in the galaxy, which included nexus-amped Vitiate who one-shot Revan. Then we have Plagueis and Sidious both confirmed more powerful than Vitiate.
Revan gets one-shot 👆
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Revan being more powerful than Ulic Qel-Droma, Thon, or Nomi Sunrider can imagine (they've seen Exar Kun when amped with thousands of Massassi) >>> Banite scaling.Frankly, doing an accoalde comparison against Revan will yield him as the winner 99.99% of the time.
You went way too far with that random in game text.
