Hulk vs. Faora/Nam-Ek

Originally posted by Robtard
But "mindraped" = more rage and rage powers Hulk.

Agreed and I don't think I implied to the contrary, Hulk lost those visions and wasn't raging anymore when his ass got knocked the **** out. But he was still Hulk.

My point was just that when IM fought Hulk, he was a Hulk at one of his most powerful levels for 99.99% of the fight, similar when Thor fought Hulk and he was buttmad due to the scepter's influence.

Here's is where we disagree though friend. Hulk has shown, even when raging he's capable of thinking to varying to degrees. Norton's Hulk should that on many occasions. So did Avengers Hulk. Even mid fight and raging... he still wasn't going around like a mindless beast destroying everything including his teammates. He was even shown taking orders on what to do. My point is, THAT version of Hulk that is totally in control of his faculties, yet is still raging doesn't equal a Hulk being pulled in a certain direction by mindrape. For example, in football you could have the best most powerful offensive line. Who get mindraped into a raged state. Good in some ways sure, they'll be beasting on the field. Bad, because they can't pick up audible calls switching out of plays, or commit dumb moves i.e. penalties.

Point here is, somebody mindraping another to be artificial mad and pulled in a certain direction can never be analogous to a Hulk raging on his own and in control imo. Can a little be inferred, I guess, but it's not the same Hulk

I'm not arguing that they're interchangeable, I'm arguing that Hulk in the S. Africa fight was more powerful compared to when he's in control of himself, due to the nature of Hulk's powers being regulated by his emotional state.

Look at it this way, do you think normal Hulk being in a lower state of rage would have done better against IM/HB?

Originally posted by Robtard
I'm not arguing that they're interchangeable, I'm arguing that Hulk in the S. Africa fight was more powerful compared to when he's in control of himself, due to the nature of Hulk's powers being regulated by his emotional state.

Look at it this way, do you think normal Hulk being in a lower state of rage would have done better against IM/HB?

Yes, because that was an artificial mad, it wasn't concrete legit mad. Those are worlds apart. It's akin to somebody telling you something they heard someone else say about you. Sure, you'll be mad but it's somewhat artificial because you don't know for sure. Now compare that to you actually hearing them say that, you'd be mad with no doubts. As we've seen, Hulk does have TP resistance, so if he was being pushed to being mad via mindrape, he would also be constantly fighting said control to some degree. Who knows how much, nobody does, but he certainly be trying to fight that off or have spells of it not working or having total control. That would be in stark contrast to Hulk genuinely being mad on his own accord without being forced to be artificial mad. Imo those are two different types of mad.

You have now come up with your own theory and offered no proof to back it up besides a completely subjective opinion. He has had no TP resistance in any movie. That is another character misrepresentation.

Movie feats prove he was stronger as mindless Hulk.

KT,

I don't follow your "artificial mad" scenario, as far as Hulk knew, those visions that where making him go buttmad were real. He seemed more crazy/mad/upset than we've ever seen him before (in the MCU).

The fight scene with HB Iron Man is valid canon material.

MCU Hulk is at a level where he can be KO'd, calm or angry. Screen feats are valid.

^ Confirmed by a mod. Nice.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
BTW try and get whatever ruling you want. I'll win.

Originally posted by Impediment
The fight scene with HB Iron Man is valid canon material.

MCU Hulk is at a level where he can be KO'd, calm or angry. Screen feats are valid.

You were saying?

Originally posted by Impediment
The fight scene with HB Iron Man is valid canon material.

MCU Hulk is at a level where he can be KO'd, calm or angry. Screen feats are valid.

Not sure what you were told to rule on, but seemingly you were given wrong information. As you'll notice on page 1, I never said it wasn't canon to the MCU and Hulk. Never disputed that. What I did dispute was that, THAT particular showings is analogous to an enraged Hulk without being mindraped. That is what I'm disputing. If you're being mindraped you're not fighting like you normally would. Mindrape implies you're being controlled and pulled in a particular direction by the person doing the raping. This can't be disputed. So, how would that be the same as a non mindraped Hulk? That is the question at hand here. Not whether it's canon to MCU Hulk. Let's examine

That particular Hulk was being mindraped and fed visions to make him angry. We have no idea how often these visions were coming in. For example, if they were being constantly fed to him, and if so, that further proves my case. Part of a fight is using your brain during a fight. Even somebody like Hulk, while enraged has shown the ability to think during a fight and isn't aimlessly fighting his team. So then, how if you're being mind controlled and fed visions of things constantly, you aren't thinking during a fight , and non thinking automatically equals not fighting to the best of your ability. How can it be viewed any other way. Just because Hulk gets stronger anger, doesn't mean we just follow that slippery slope to, well, he was artificially being fed visions to make him angry, thus he was stronger, That is blatantly false on many levels

First, as I just talked about, if you're not thinking to the best of your ability, you're not fighting to the best of your ability. This is explicitly why we factor that in to our debates as an example of somebody not fighting to the best of their abilities. We see this in all threads across the forum. Yet here, we just forget that part and say Hulk was even better and stronger? No way, that logical progression doesn't work, and exactly why we made rules stating that isn't somebody fighting their best.

Second, Hulk has feats explicitly better than anything he did in that fight. His feat in the first avenger Movie of stopping that giant monster thing with a punch right after changing. That pooos on anything he did against Hulkbuster. Which further goes to invalidate this artificial method of making Hulk angry and what he did in that fight. He has others that are better as well. Point is, both of those factors imo show that a mindraped Hulk can't be the best Hulk

That is all I've been saying this entire time, and what the ruling should be about. Sure we can use a mindraped Hulk on the forum and then that cool. What I'm saying is, in now way, can a mindraped be Hulk be the same as a non mindraped Hulk. Those are the same person nor Caliber of fighter. T.I. trying to say it's the same Hulk and that is the Hulk we use in fights. I don't agree. So please rule on this matter. Are you saying a mindraped Hulk sent visions to make him angry is the same as a non mindraped Hulk who's angry on his own?

I'm also confused on what you mean a calm or angry Hulk has been KO'd. When was an angry Hulk KO'd? It certainly wasn't in the scene in questions. As others have pointed out, he had calmed down right before the KO. He was literally looking all sad and depressed on what he had done moments before. That is the discussion here. T.I. is trying to say that was a normal angry Hulk and he was KO'd, and thus can be KO'd like that. That is what is blatantly false. He was normally angry, nor was he angry right before the KO. He was literally on the ground looking sad, so how can that be a normally enraged Hulk that was KO'd?

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
You were saying?

So you told him to rule on something I never said LOL. Okay, that isn't out discussion. I clearly have to tell him the discussion at hand. We'll see what he says.

I didn't tell him anything but to make a ruling on the thread, now you are assuming he didn't read the thread based on what proof?

Just give up for once and take the loss ok? Is it worth 100 page thread you know you are already wrong in?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
HulkBuster showing doesn't count because he was being mindraped firstly.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You're not understanding what I'm saying. Him being mindraped invalidates the entire showing.

BTW try and get whatever ruling you want. I'll win. Him being mindraped automatically isn't applicable to a non mindraped Hulk. Nobody is saying it didn't happen. But what is clear, is that it doesn't count for a non mindraped Hulk. Sure though, if you want to use a mindraped Hulk in a fight... it will count.

Originally posted by Impediment
The fight scene with HB Iron Man is valid canon material.

MCU Hulk is at a level where he can be KO'd, calm or angry. Screen feats are valid.

Originally posted by Robtard
KT,

I don't follow your "artificial mad" scenario, as far as Hulk knew, those visions that where making him go buttmad were real. He seemed more crazy/mad/upset than we've ever seen him before (in the MCU).

As you know, the rule is very clear on these matters, if you're being altered mentally you're not fighting to the best of your abilities. As you say, these Hulk's aren't interchangeable. So you agree with what I've been saying this whole time. That state Hulk isn't analogous to a normally pissed Hulk simply by the fact that he was being altered mentally. However, to go further on what you said.

The reason it clearly wasn't madder than anything we've seen is because his feats don't support that distinction in the least. That is exactly the problem. If he was truly the most enraged than we've ever seen, we'd see feats to support that. We don't. So no, that correlation can't be made, to say nothing of the clear rule we have on these forums and others; being altered mentally isn't them fighting to the best of their abilities. Further, more proof Hulk wasn't more angry is that we'd see him then be much harder to calm down. Yet here, where you're saying he's angrier then we've ever seen him.. He goes to sad panda nigh instantly? Even when we've seen him calm down, he just casually strolls over, still looking pissed but he's calm. There we see him siting on the ground, almost crying, yet he was more enraged than he ever was before? That isn't 'the proper logical progression there imo. I can't see how that is even possible. Then when you couple the above i.e. him not doing anything better than he ever had before, when less angry, it all doesn't jive or make sense.

Which begs the question, why didn't he do anything more impressive or look more impressive than times he was supposedly less angry; why did he look all sad and upset so quickly if he was supposedly angrier than we've seen? Odd, well, it's because it was artificial anger. It was being fed to him, he wasn't feeling it to his entire core of his body. Think about it, you hear somebody tell you what somebody said about you (fed visions) compared to actually hearing something that person said for yourself. One you're being told you should be angry but it's all mostly mental and supposition. the other you feel it to your core, you know it's true. It's like the difference of Hulk seeing Betty in danger. He loves her, he feels it to his inner being. How could that compare to a Hulk being fed visions to try and make him angry? It wouldn't. So I disagree with any notion that this was the angriest we've seen him and more enraged on most levels. It just doesn't jive on many levels imo.

Think about it, how much was SW feeding him those visions? How frequently? If it was just send him some visions, well that pales in comparison to a usually enraged Hulk. There's a huge difference in my view to somebody being feed visions to make them angry, as him being pissed for a legit reason. So then if it was visions here and there, how could that be the most enraged Hulk or even remotely powerful? Now if it was constant and extreme, that doesn't help either, cause then we'd be left with a Hulk extremely altered mentally. Which again, isn't a pissed Hulk nor the best Hulk. So that doesn't work. My entire issue here, is trying to use that showing to show that Hulk can be KO'd when enraged as TI was implying. You agree he wasn't enraged when KO'd, so then it seems we're just discussing the severity of the mindraped. Well that, is impossible to answer. You seem to believe it was extreme and thus a really enraged power Hulk, and I simply can't get behind that progression as I stated above. This all started with that feat being used to show Hulk can be KO'd be IM while enraged. I disagree, and I think you agree it's not valid, but then you seem to think it's analogous to a enraged Hulk.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
I didn't tell him anything but to make a ruling on the thread, now you are assuming he didn't read the thread based on what proof?

Just give up for once and take the loss ok? Is it worth 100 page thread you know you are already wrong in?

Wrong? Okay LOL. Look at these quotes. I wasn't saying the showing DOESN"T count. It does. I even said it's canon to MCU Hulk. But ONLY canon to a Hulk being mindraped. THAT is the discussion. You tried to say IM KO'd him thus he can be KO'd while pissed. I disagree with that entirely. There is a reason we have rules on these forums. There is a reason why mindraped is considered a negative to somebody fighting to the best of their abilities. As a supes fan, you should know this very well. I've seen you and others argue that Superman, even though he's being mindraped to be bloodlusted, isn't fighting to the best of their ability. Why? Because he's being mindraped, that means he's not fighting the best. Yet here, Hulk is being mindraped and you're trying to use that as proof that a normally enraged Hulk can be KO'd by Hulkbuster level punch. No way. There is a reason we have rules in place for mindrape. They aren't excused because you want it to be. I have ZERO issue with you using that as proof of what can KO'd a Hulk that was being mindraped, but then even has calmed down, sure you can use it. But to try and conflate that with a Hulk who's enraged, can never work. Isn't possible. Even without the mindrape it's still not a pissed Hulk that as KO'd. Moments before he was LITERALLY sitting on the ground almost crying and sad. Yet, you're using that to show the force required to KO a pissed Hulk? That is the discussion here, and in now way am I wrong, nor did he even rule on the discussion

Mod already made a ruling. That's it. It doesn't require pages and pages of explanation.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You're not understanding what I'm saying. Him being mindraped invalidates the entire showing. If he was being mindraped, that means by proxy, he wasn't in control of his actions. Hulk, even when enraged has shown he is capable of thinking out there. After all, he is one of he smartest men on the planet as Banner. Granted, some of that goes out the door in his Hulk state, but he is still thinking out there to varying degrees. So when you're mindraped, and you're not in control of your thoughts or actions that ISN'T what a normal Hulk would fight like. That is what invalidates the showing. To say nothing of the fact that he had IM beat... ripped his armor to complete shreds... only through tech was IM not destroyed as he had spare parts flown in mid fight. Make no mistake though, he would've gotten owned. It was a good showing for IM and you can take a little away from that showing In Re: Hulk, but really, not all that much

BTW try and get whatever ruling you want. I'll win. Him being mindraped automatically isn't applicable to a non mindraped Hulk. Nobody is saying it didn't happen. But what is clear, is that it doesn't count for a non mindraped Hulk. Sure though, if you want to use a mindraped Hulk in a fight... it will count.

As you even see here, I said it counts. Nobodyu said it wasn't canon. What it isn't, is show of a normal Hulk fighting to the best of his abilities. Period. That is the disuccsion here. It counts, it happened. but that wasn't a normal Hulk there that can be used as an example of what a normal Hulk would fight like or what it would take to KO him

He was losing the fight before the KO.

Take it up with Imp, he made the ruling you are ignoring.

Faora and Nam-Ek win this one. Faora has her speedblitzes, Nam-Ek threw a train engine like a javelin, and they fought a foe who (again, I know certain people don't agree, but the proof is in the screen feats' puddin'😉 is MCU Hulk's superior in Cavillman.

Only thing that can make it go in Hulk's favor is a Loki ragdoll special to destroy Faora and Nam-Ek's masks followed up by another Loki ragdoll special. I could see Hulk taking a win via knockout that way if it was 1-on-1, but it's both Kryptonians vs Banner. Banner loses while Hulk fans and comic book movie lovers like myself continue to count down the days till Thor: Ragnarok drops.

Originally posted by John Murdoch
Faora and Nam-Ek win this one. Faora has her speedblitzes, Nam-Ek threw a train engine like a javelin, and they fought a foe who (again, I know certain people don't agree, but the proof is in the screen feats' puddin'😉 is MCU Hulk's superior in Cavillman.

Only thing that can make it go in Hulk's favor is a Loki ragdoll special to destroy Faora and Nam-Ek's masks followed up by another Loki ragdoll special. I could see Hulk taking a win via knockout that way if it was 1-on-1, but it's both Kryptonians vs Banner. Banner loses while Hulk fans and comic book movie lovers like myself continue to count down the days till Thor: Ragnarok drops.

It's not as far fetched as you believe. Just reference Hulk catching Thor's hammer in The Avengers. We all know how fast Thor can throw his hammer, Hulk caught it. Reference the ejecting fighter pilot. We know how fast those airplanes can eject the pilot... Hulk, point blank, caught the chair and the pilot. I would even reference the fight with Hulk and the IM Hulkbuster... There's a scene where Hulk appears to be a good 30 to 40 feet away.. and then almost in an instant he's right on top of IM.. exhibiting great closing distance. I think he might be able to grab a hold of them and when he does, they'll get the Loki treatment and their mask will be compromised.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
It's not as far fetched as you believe. Just reference Hulk catching Thor's hammer in The Avengers. We all know how fast Thor can throw his hammer, Hulk caught it. Reference the ejecting fighter pilot. We know how fast those airplanes can eject the pilot... Hulk, point blank, caught the chair and the pilot. I would even reference the fight with Hulk and the IM Hulkbuster... There's a scene where Hulk appears to be a good 30 to 40 feet away.. and then almost in an instant he's right on top of IM.. exhibiting great closing distance. I think he might be able to grab a hold of them and when he does, they'll get the Loki treatment and their mask will be compromised.

Those are good points, especially the fighter pilot ejection seat catch. The fight with Hulkbuster from AoU, IMO, really showcases Hulk's combat speed and just absolute frenetic, furious nature when he gets into a scrap. He's like a rabid dog. One of the things that Hulk keeps on Tony throughout the fight is pressure: he's on top of him on the ground, he's on top of him on the side of the building, he's on the top of him in the air.

Hulk can make Faora and Nam-Ek have a really tough day if he can
A) keep that insane level of pressure on them, and
B) get those masks compromised.

It really comes down to Hulk's speed, agility, strength, and fighting "style" being enough to combat Faora and Nam-Ek long enough to damage their suits and masks.

The two main issues I see:
- Both Faora and Nam-Ek, individually, have capabilities greater than Iron Man, and
- Hulk's fighting both of them as a team.

Hulk wins but Kt is a retard.