Why Valkorion is more powerful than Palpatine.

Firstly, because it isn't directed at you.

Secondly, 'largest dark side nexus the galaxy would ever see' does infact pertain to both size and potency, given the effects of said nexus were the most damaging in the mythos. Malachor V is a footnote by comparison, for example. It is self-explanatory at this point.

Thirdly, it granted him immortality, something he could later pass on to Scourge. Kinda the whole point of Scourge betraying Revan.

Fourth, a ritual requires a physical presence. The codex is quite clearly making a distinction between Nathema and Ziost, the first was the result of a ritual and the second was the result of pure *corrosive* power.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Firstly, because it isn't directed at you.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Start here:

Originally posted by AncientPower
Secondly, 'largest dark side nexus the galaxy would ever see' does infact pertain to both size and potency, given the effects of said nexus were the most damaging in the mythos. Malachor V is a footnote by comparison, for example. It is self-explanatory at this point.

Size and potency are distinct. You're certainly free to present the argument that Nathema was the most potent nexus because of its effects, but you've failed spectacularly to defend the notion that the Encyclopedia really meant "most powerful dark side nexus" when all it said was "largest dark side nexus."

Which leads us back to that critical fact that... a planet is larger than a person. 😐

Originally posted by AncientPower
Thirdly, it granted him immortality, something he could later pass on to Scourge. Kinda the whole point of Scourge betraying Revan.

The Encyclopedia and codex state the ritual merely prolonged his life:

And both Encyclopedia and codex say immortality was still the as-of-yet unattained true goal:

So... nah.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Fourth, a ritual requires a physical presence.

According to... whom?

Originally posted by AncientPower
The codex is quite clearly making a distinction between Nathema and Ziost, the first was the result of a ritual and the second was the result of pure *corrosive* power.

Indeed the codex is making a distinction: between whispered rumors and clear displays. Not sure what the point of bracketing the word corrosive in asterisks is supposed to do for your argument: clearly the effect on Nathema was corrosive as well lol.

AP, you should either address the TOR-Legends thing or concede; pretending it's not there looks pretty childish.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Then he does the same thing all over again 1,300 years later at Ziost, but this time he doesn't need a ritual or any aid, or even physical form to perform it. He also drains power from the nearby star and causes power fluctuations in a space station from massive distances.

😬

Y'know AP, its time's like this that I'm reminded just how terrible a debater you are. 🙂

Originally posted by AncientPower
@Beniboybling

You have quite aptly brought to attention one of the most outlying reasons why the double standard nexus wanking that is perpetuating by your Sheev brigade is so outright hilarious. You and those like you have wanked the idea that all of Vitiate's feats are nexus amplified.

My response:

But really AP, anyone with an IQ score above the single digits can spot this tacky, tactless attempt at evasion, or rather, barring Anthony, I'm pretty sure we can all recognise this for the automatic concession that it is.

That said at least you made an effort to post something (and you actually sourced your evidence this time!), so I'll respond, and maybe after that you can get back to the breadth of the argument you were supposed to be rebutting. 👆

In the OP I destroyed that argument, but here lies the chief problem:

Now, your argument seems to consist of three main points.
[list=1][*]That Vitiate was instrumental in creating the nexus on Dromund Kaas at "great expense" of his own power and therefore, shouldn't benefit from it.

[*]That the Dread Masters were insignificant to Vitiate and therefore so was the potent nexus on Oricon.

[*]That Vitiate moved beyond nexuses by consuming the most powerful in history to become uber stronk and immortal.[/list]
So let's see how each of these hold up under scrutiny (hint: poorly.)

#1

First, let's do some fact checking, and remind ourselves that Dromund Kaas was already strong in the dark side prior to the Emperor arriving there:

Taken from The Old Republic: Revan

The powerful electrical storms were a physical manifestation of the dark side power that engulfed the entire planet--a power that had brought the Sith back here a millennium before, when their very survival had been in doubt.

At which point said Sith planets, such as Ziost, Korriban and indeed Dromund Kaas, had lost much of their luster since the Sith golden age, or in other words, Kaas would have been perhaps more than a "transcendent vortex of energy" when Vitiate discovered it.

The fact that Vitiate was seemingly drawn to this planet because of its tremendous power (see above) only reflecting his desire to harness it, equally telling is the fact the Emperor chose to perform his Sith sorcery within the walls of the Dark Temple, a Sith tomb he had constructed that's architecture typically enhanced and focused the power of the dark side:

Taken from Chronicles of Sorzus Syn, Book of Sith

The Sith have had a thousand generations to perfect the dark arts. The ziggurats of stacked stone and the mountainsides carved into stern faces are more than just tombs for vanished kings. When you stand at the intersection of this mystic architecture, you feel a rush of wind and a shiver of electricity. The angles of these mausoleums focus the arcane energies of the Force.

Taken from The Old Republic: Revan

A decade earlier, when Scourge had first arrived on Dromund Kaas as a young apprentice, he had vowed to one day set foot inside the citadel's exclusive halls. Yet in all his years of training at the Sith Academy on Kaas City's borders, he had never been granted the privilege. He had been one of the top students, marked by his superiors for his strength in the Force and his fanatic devotion to the ways of the Sith. But acolytes were not permitted inside the citadel; its secrets were reserved for those in direct service to the Emperor and the Dark Council.

The dark side power emanating from within the building was undeniable; he had felt the raw, crackling energy every day during his years as an acolyte. He had drawn on it, focusing his mind and spirit to channel the power through his own body to sustain him during the brutal training sessions.

Secondly we have the insinuation that because it was of "great expense" to the Emperor to bolster said nexus that somehow he wouldn't have been able to benefit from it? Well that logic is frankly incomplete and really doesn't follow on when we consider that Vitiate had ample time to recover whatever was lost and then proceed to reap what he had sown.

#2

Well first of all let's interrogate the evidence of this:

"The Dread Masters changed Oricon. Even their combined power is insignificant compared to the Emperor."

--Emperor's Wrath, Shadow of Revan

Or rather, from an in-universe perspective, the Wrath's opinion is pretty baseless.

But let's say AP that I throw you a bone regardless and we infer authorial intent. Does the fact that their power is "insignificant" in comparison to his own really make their power insignificant to him as a resource? Well no. Not when Vitiate went to significant pains to siphon the power of those far lesser to them, such as his Hands:

Taken from SWTOR Encyclopedia

Servants of the Hand share their Master's longevity, living untouched by age for centuries under his command. In return, the Emperor draws on his servant's strength in the Force and body to feed his ever-increasing power, leaving the servants withered and frail.

Taken from SWTOR Encyclopedia

The temple became a nexus of dark side energy as the Emperor performed rituals within, drawing strength and knowledge from his captives.

Taken from The Old Republic: Revan

REVAN COULD FEEL THE EMPEROR FEEDING ON HIM, drawing on his power to sate his endless hunger.

"The Emperor is the dark side incarnate. You wouldn't stand a chance."

--Emperor's Wrath, Shadow of Revan

"...The Emperor will prove far too powerful for Revan, or anyone else."

--Darth Marr, Shadow of Revan

#3

Well I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but with this you've essentially nailed the final coffin in your own case here. Let's just consider for a moment that by absorbing the power of a planetary nexus Vitiate "extends his life and vastly increases his capacity as a practitioner of the Force."

Or rather demonstrates pretty compelling proof that Valkorion can achieve vast gains from a planetary nexus after all. "But teh were 8000 Sith Lords!" you say "and Valkorion is much stronker now!"

But then you went and raised Ziost as well, oh dear, let's review:

Originally posted by AP-tard

Originally posted by AncientPow-Wow what an awful debatur

Voices... Hands... Children... I no longer require those crude vessels. At long last I am truly free.

Granted he drained the whole thing dry in both instances but think relatively for a moment, if Valkorion consuming a planet strong in the dark side is going to result in a permanent and considerable, if not vast transformation in power, him simply drawing on one is going to confer some sizeable amps, and he's certainly not at a point where that kind of power is mere trinkets and baubles to him. Not in the slightest.

So now that we've reestablished that Vitiate is very much in the buisness of nexuses, let's mop up the rest of your points.

Just to rephrase this, the entire time Sidious was summoning Force Storms, he was being amplified constantly by the draining of 20,000,000,000 on Byss.

Clearly Force Storms are a feat Sidious achieved by utilising an enormous external source of practically unlimited energy.

Taken from The Essential Chronology

He summoned up a huge Force storm, far more powerful than the one that had swept Coruscant. But this time, when Skywalker and his sister turned their combined resistance against him, Palpatine could no longer control what he had unleashed.

Taken from Darth Sidious, Book of Sith: Secrets from the Dark Side

"The galaxy is choked with beings. Billions die every instant. It is better to make use of this resource. At my retreat on Byss, the life force of its colonists supplied an energy pool to sustain my dark side experiments."

Taken from The Essential Atlas

After choosing Byss as his resort world, Palpatine lured eager nobles to the planet--then used his dark powers to enslave its people, channeling their life energies for use in his own vile experiments within the fell Imperial Citadel.

Which rather have its origins within the body of the wielder. Indeed it is instead a reflection of "his own dark power".

On the other hand you've failed to provide any conclusive evidence that the aforementioned "experiments" include Force storms. So I would suggest conceding that point, yeah.

Here comes the humorous part, Darth Sidious freely admits that they are an energy pool designed to sustain his 'experiments':

Altogether not sure how this paints Valkorion as Palpatine's superior, only Palpatine as smarter than Valkorion for employing such an efficient artifice, the latter, for whatever reason, failing to demonstrate the same brilliance, or perhaps simply could not accomplish it. mmm

Most interesting is the fact that, whereas the Immortal Emperor Valkorion has found a means by which to gain immortality via a ritual:

And then a death field, whilst a disembodied spirit, which not only ended Ziost, but also sapped energy from Ziost's moons and the local star:

Darth Sidious on the other hand, freely admits that he has not yet discovered this 'ultimate' secret:

Nor do we have evidence indicating this has changed, infact upon return to Byss after his death, we have the implication that he merely continued to do what he had done prior:

Taken from Darth Plagueis

Extending life, then, could hinge on something as simple as being able to induce midi-chlorians to create new cells; to subdivide at will, increasing their numbers into the tens of thousands to heal or replace damaged, aging, or metastatic cells. Midi-chlorians had to be compelled to serve the needs of the body; to bestow strength when needed; to overcome physical insult, or prevent cells from reaching senescence.

If one accepted the tales handed down in accounts and holocrons, the ancient Sith had known how to accomplish this.

Determined never again to be caught off guard, he had trained himself to go without sleep, and had devoted two standard decades to day-and-night experimentation with midi-chlorian manipulation and attempts to wrest a few last secrets from the Force, so that he--and presumably his human apprentice--might live forever. His inward turn had enabled him to master the equally powerful energies of order and disorder, creation and entropy, life and death.

Taken from Darth Plagueis

And so after Sidious had returned to Coruscant, he had devoted himself to internalizing that ability, by manipulating the midi-chlorians that animated him. For several months he made no progress, but ultimately he began to perceive a measured change. The scars that had grown over his wounds had abruptly begun to soften and fade, and he had begun to breathe more freely than he had in twenty years. He began to sense that not only were his damaged tissues healing, but his entire body was rejuvinating itself. Beneath the transpirator, areas of his skin were smooth and youthful, and he knew that eventually he would cease to age altogether.

Taken from Darth Plagueis

Faintly aware of the whir of air scrubbers and sounds of the outside world infiltrating the luxurious suite, he continued the vigil; then, in relief, he pulled himself up to his full height and let out his breath. This was no Sith trick. Not an instance of feigning death, but one of succumbing to its cold embrace. The being who had guided him to power was gone.

Wry amusement narrowed his eyes.

The Muun might have lived another hundred years unchanged. He might have lived forever had he succeeded fully in his quest. But in the end-though he could save others from death-he had failed to save himself.

Taken from Darth Plagueis

Darth Plagueis: Like all Sith Lords before him, he craves absolute power. But like no Sith Lord ever, he possesses the ultimate power--over life and death.

On the other hand true immortality is described as for Valkorion, sadly, an impossible goal that he could never acheive:

Shame.

So far we've established that, the Sith Emperor Vitiate as a disembodied spirit can dominate entire armies, including Jedi:

Whilst creating immortal monstrosities out of pure dark side energy:

Oh and draining a planet, without a ritual, as the distinction is made here:

Whereas Darth Sidious:

He wants me to flee? No--attack. Set fire to Ord Mantell. Wait, that's wrong. Freeze the oceans of Manaan. Changing commands. Which are lies? What is truth?

--Suri, The Emperor's Orphans

This being of course without the convenience of a potent dark side nexus on which to attach himself to, but at the very least Palpatine didn't need his lackeys to come and pick him up. Lmao.

Anyway, it was only after being taken to Yavin 4, a planet described as Satele as on "another level entirely" to Oricon, itself "immeasurably strong in with the dark side", where his essence was stored within a Massassi temple designed to focus this immense power:

Taken from The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

The Massassi built huge temples of ancient Sith design to focus great dark side energies.

"Great power is locked in these temples."

--Freedon Nadd, Tales of the Jedi: Dark Lords of the Sith

Taken from Star Wars: Tales of the Jedi - Dark Lords of the Sith 4

Tremendous energies are concentrated in these half-ruined temples.

And having fed off thousands of deaths caused by the conflict:

"The scores of dead have nourished me. I am awakened. And I bring with me--death!"

--Emperor Vishitiate, Rise of the Emperor

But what of Valkorion? Well at the very least dying didn't drive him insane but he certainly doesn't seem to be in a position to conjure up dark side monstrosities or consume planets, instead he seems entirely dependent on the player both to survive death and do anything at all, including the defeat of his Children and reclaim of his throne:

"We must deal with my errant son and daughter before they ruin everything."

"I knew you wanted something. You can't stop them alone."

"They are deadly - and worse, lack discipline. do not underestimate their threat. It will take both of us to undo the damage they can inflict."

--Valkorion and the Outlander, Knights of the Fallen Empire: Chapter 2

"My son is too strong. You need my power. Only together can be strike him down."

--Valkorion, Knights of the Fallen Empire: Chapter 8

On the other hand one critical and recurrent factor in the deaths of Valkorion is that it weakens him. Both after he was struck down the Hero of Tython (see above), and by Arcann:

"Father's power is changed, it's weaker."

--Arcann, Knights of the Fallen Empire: Chapter 8

Taken from Handbook 3: Dark Empire

Skywalker was responsible for some of the greatest setbacks Emperor Palpatine ever suffered. But despite the young Jedi Knights's best efforts, Palpatine's grasp on the dark side - and power over the galaxy - remained unshaken.

Taken from SW Databank: Palpatine

With her presence, the two Skywalker twins were temporarily able to repulse Palpatine.

Unabated, the Emperor continued his scourge.

Taken from Handbook 3: Dark Empire

Luke knew that without clones to inhabit, Palpatine's spirit would be consigned forever to the void. But Palpatine was able to transfer himself at the last moment. Within a new clone body, the Emperor was more powerful than ever.

Taken from Dark Empire: Audiodrama

Palpatine: Very well, then I must die! (laughs)
Luke: He's vanished!
Palpatine: Vanished, Skywalker? I exist as energy, remember? I am all around you! Here! And here! And here! And here!

So what exactly, does Valkorion have that compares? Getting trapped in a holocron?

Now on to the last but certainly not least imbecilic claim.

Beni, you seek to lowball Emperor Vitiate's galactic scale destruction by fallaciously drawing parallels between him and the infinitely inferior Traya's attempt to end the Force with wounds. Not only have you ignore the fact that Meetra specifically states that Malachor V and Nathema aren't remotely on the same level:

You also somehow ignored a link that shows Vitiate's draining the galaxy in mere seconds:

https://youtu.be/NAZOn0mPfTU[

Shame said rebuttal was hopelessly pathetic. 😬

Anyway:

1. Nathema is irrelevant here. Vitiate wasn't going to trigger the ritual by consuming another planet per se, but simply causing countless mass death, which is yes, what created Malachor.

2. The speed of which Vitiate's galaxy draining ritual is also irrelevant to what ultimately triggers it, but regardless as Sunrazer rightly addressed, a Force vision can't be expected to accurately reflect time frames regardless.

And in case you believed this was proof no ritual was involved, the Wrath learns otherwise in SoR.

And I believe that covers everything, I look forward to your response. 😉

My god, that's your reply? It is as if ignoring the main point of the thread is your only means of winning.... Oh, right.

😆

You mean to inflate your own ego and wank Valkorion? Sry.

Don't worry, I'll be sure to point out the several pieces of inaccurate information in your replies and see that your farcical attempt at redirecting the thread away from the genuinely important factor in this argument, is absolutely exposed for what it is.

But I'll deal with Temp first, funny how the PT Brigade has to come in at strength against me to make its arguments.

Alright AP, I look forward to discovering what the true masterful purpose of this thread really is.

If not to make you appear like a clown. 🙂

Stop trying to be Tempest. 😂

The thread appears to have backfired. The PT Brigade is indeed the superior combative force. 🙂

👆 🙂

AP is going through denial atm, but she'll realise this soon.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Stop trying to be Tempest. 😂

Originally posted by The Ellimist
AP, you should either address the TOR-Legends thing or concede; pretending it's not there looks pretty childish.

LMFAO

I already addressed it, you people have awful attention spans.

Can everyone pls accept that Valkorion is inferior to Palpatine in every way, shape, and form? 🙂

And I'm contemplating the Plagueis argument...

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Can everyone pls accept that Valkorion is inferior to Palpatine in every way, shape, and form? 🙂

✅