Originally posted by golem370
Ebony Blade off with his head.
To paraphrase Peter Hathaway Capstick, a now gone man who used to be the most reknown big game hunter of yore, the 'problem with hunting leopards at night with a rifle, is that you are hunting leopards at night with a rifle.'
Sure, let's assume you have a sword that can lob off the head of a pre-crisis Kryptonian. The problem is that you are trying to use a sword on a pre-crisis Kryptonian ...a sword! On a bloodlusted, not holding back Kryptonian that is trying to destroy the world.
Now, I am confident that the MU would win. There are simply too many layers for one character to come and win.
However, it will not be because of ebony blades or characters like Red Hulk (that was a joke, right?)
MU wins
Originally posted by cdtm
Gets blitzed.PC Superman's actually countered evil wizards with super speed before. Assuming a bloodlusted version, he'd blitz pretty much every magic user before they could get a spell off.
Listen bro. There are other heroes that would be out there fighting the good fight. Strange would only need to cast a spell similar to the one that destroyed Sun God and crew, and the rest is history. It's like Digi stated earlier on, if you're going to use Superman at his best, then you would also use the Marvel defenders at their best as well. Dr. Strange would be a huge threat, as well as all of the high powered telepaths on Marvel Earth in terms of all of the time that Dr. Strange would have to pull off a killer spell, or one that could send him to dimensions with beings that would absolutely scare the mess out of PC Superman. There is no such thing as an unbeatable character at PC Superman's level.
the inhumans + the Shiar imperial guard + gladiator + adam warlock + magik
PC superman still needs to keeps a solar charge to keep powers. id say Karnack probably would figure this out and try to get him teleported to somewhere with no sun like limbo and hold him there until hes drained. he has magic immunity but Magik is still the ruler and doesn't have to let him out. eventually he will become overrun with demons since magik still holds the soulsword or the MU can decide
Originally posted by staxamillion
the inhumans + the Shiar imperial guard + gladiator + adam warlock + magikPC superman still needs to keeps a solar charge to keep powers. id say Karnack probably would figure this out and try to get him teleported to somewhere with no sun like limbo and hold him there until hes drained. he has magic immunity but Magik is still the ruler and doesn't have to let him out. eventually he will become overrun with demons since magik still holds the soulsword or the MU can decide
PC Superman had magic immunity? Not from what I remember. Or do you mean in this particular thread? I understood that he could not be exploited with a weakness that he had, not what he is vulnerable to.
Originally posted by Stoic
Listen bro. There are other heroes that would be out there fighting the good fight. Strange would only need to cast a spell similar to the one that destroyed Sun God and crew, and the rest is history. It's like Digi stated earlier on, if you're going to use Superman at his best, then you would also use the Marvel defenders at their best as well. Dr. Strange would be a huge threat, as well as all of the high powered telepaths on Marvel Earth in terms of all of the time that Dr. Strange would have to pull off a killer spell, or one that could send him to dimensions with beings that would absolutely scare the mess out of PC Superman. There is no such thing as an unbeatable character at PC Superman's level.
Strange only killed them because he crossed a line, though. That other mage could have killed him outright with a word, but chose to incapacitate (This is proven by the general theme of the JLA clones. None of them are killers.)
Marvel's biggest problem, is Superman's THE top end speedster. Not "a" top end, but "the".
Even the biggest anti Superman a-hole, Pendaran, was essentially forced to admit at pre crisis levels, he's faster then Surfer (And if you know Pendaran, he wanks Norrin's speed as the apex.)
So it's not much of a stretch to say he can destroy Earth and attack the slowest opponents at the bell, and then deal with anyone fast enough/powerful enough to not be killed outright.
It would still be a sizable list, but I can't think of a single spell caster in it..
Re: Pre crisis Superman vs the Marvel U
Originally posted by lawest9
PC Superman who once sneezed away a solar system, gets trapped in the MU by an unidentifiable power, the action turns him insanely violent and bent on total destruction, as a result of this transaction he becomes immune to krytonite magic and red sun radiation, who in the MU below trans level can stop him and how many marvel heroes/villians working together can put an halt to his trail of destruction?
Read Red Son.
The part where RS vs everyone. There's your answer.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Agreed. Mainly 'cause I've seen instances of Supergirl and people who'd had Supes' power transferred to them magically, and sneeze accidentally, and no more than room clearing/room destroying gale winds resulted.
On the other hand I've seen PC Superboy move the Earth just by blowing at it. So it doesn't really make it hard for me to believe an utterly uncontrollable sneeze could lay waste to a star system.
I agree an insanely violent Pre-crisis Supes has the power to crack a planet. Or even throw an Earth sized one. That's why I asked if he'd target people specifically or remain focused on the actual rocky body comprising the planet.
Marvel's chances become very grim indeed if he's doing the latter and largely ignoring people. Chances go up considerably if he's minded to go after people .
I guess it depends on what people mean by "PC Superman". That generally means the insanely powerful version of Superman, to me. Yes he has plenty of low end feats, but his high ends..he doesn't even need to sneezing feat. PC Superboy could casually tow dozens of planets on a giant chain.
PC Superman has enough physical strength to literally shove an object through time. His speed would be more or less equal to or above Wally West level craziness.
On the other hand, this version was also much much more vulnerable to magic than any other incarnation.
Kryptonite, magic, and red sun radiation are merely the most well-known "solutions" to the pre-Crisis Superman problem.
Superman could be affected, rendered effectively powerless, or even overwhelmed and rendered senseless WHILE he had his powers through a surprising number of devices. The most practical solution available on Marvel Earth would probably be teleportation, or time/dimensional BFR. Here's an outrageous example of just how low tech such a device could be and still work ...
Note that the above actually knocks Superman out.
And yes, this is Superman from the 1960s, the same era that Mxyzptlk-enabled "Galaxy Sneezer" took place.
Here, the previous submission I'd found online searching with the terms
"Luthor", "Tungsten", and "Superman" or something of that sort.
I'd filed that away in my own archives years ago. Much more difficult to get to nowadays than it used to be; that submission is from the book
Superman's Girlfriend Lois Lane #28.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Kryptonite, magic, and red sun radiation are merely the most well-known "solutions" to the pre-Crisis Superman problem.Superman could be affected, rendered effectively powerless, or even overwhelmed and rendered senseless WHILE he had his powers through a surprising number of devices. The most practical solution available on Marvel Earth would probably be teleportation, or time/dimensional BFR. Here's an outrageous example of just how low tech such a device could be and still work ...
Everyone has a plan until PC Superman PUNCHES THEIR FACE OFF!!!!
PsychoSupes would get a couple people to be sure.
There's only a few people who really matter in our scenario, though.
Dr. Doom comes to mind. Who is nearly always protected by forcefields in the comics, it seems. And apparently has his own chronometer or time travel device? Was the case in the Heroes Reborn 4 part series, IIRC.
Earth perished a couple of times with Doom as sole survivor. Until finally Doom was able to confer with Stark, Richards, and some other major players and stop Galactus from destroying Earth.
I'm under the impression something similar happened more recently in the case of Exitar destroying the Earth. He actually DID so 1st time around, didn't he? I'd be somewhat surprised if a "second chance" time travel workaround wasn't used to undo that episode, which, eventually, famously, has Rogue, empowered with the might of many of Marvel's heroes, and Death Sentry, physically halt the descent of the Celestial, stopping him from crushing the world until others (Thor?) could strike and drive him off.
Now that I come to think of it, the OP's premise is actually remarkably like storylines that have actually occurred, just with Galactus and Exitar in the place of our proposed, "insanely violent" pre-Crisis Superman.
At any rate, just want it on record that time travel and teleport devices Do work on pre-Crisis Supes, even without Kryptonite, Magic, or Red Sun:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=15999523
and that, even besides Dr. Doom, and presumably Reed Richards,
other heroes have time and teleport tech, too.
Note that Superman would likely NOT be able to duplicate what Deus Ex Machina Betty does here to thwart the attempt, which would otherwise have been successful:
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Red She-Hulk versus Avengers
(URL format with reference information.)
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14067091
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14067101
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14067104
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14067115
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14067120
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14067128
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Source: Incredible Hulk #607, Volume 1
Writer: Greg Pak
Penciller: Paul Pelletier
Date: February 17, 2010
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http://marvel.wikia.com/Incredible_Hulk_Vol_1_607
Shortened, clickable link version of the above.
See also Galactus versus Marvel U. Earth, Heroes Reborn 4 part saga, and Marvel U. Earth versus Exitar.
----------------------------
time travel and teleport devices Do work on pre-Crisis Supes, even without Kryptonite, Magic, or Red Sun:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=15999523
heroes have time and teleport tech
Note that Superman would likely NOT be able to duplicate what Deus Ex Machina Betty does here to thwart the attempt, which would otherwise have been successful:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Red She-Hulk versus Avengers
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14067091
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14067101
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14067104
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14067115
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14067120
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14067128
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: Incredible Hulk #607, Volume 1
Writer: Greg Pak
Penciller: Paul Pelletier
Date: February 17, 2010
----------------------------------------------------------------------
http://marvel.wikia.com/Incredible_Hulk_Vol_1_607
Originally posted by cdtm
Strange only killed them because he crossed a line, though. That other mage could have killed him outright with a word, but chose to incapacitate (This is proven by the general theme of the JLA clones. None of them are killers.)Marvel's biggest problem, is Superman's THE top end speedster. Not "a" top end, but "the".
Even the biggest anti Superman a-hole, Pendaran, was essentially forced to admit at pre crisis levels, he's faster then Surfer (And if you know Pendaran, he wanks Norrin's speed as the apex.)
So it's not much of a stretch to say he can destroy Earth and attack the slowest opponents at the bell, and then deal with anyone fast enough/powerful enough to not be killed outright.
It would still be a sizable list, but I can't think of a single spell caster in it..
Ask yourself if Strange would cross the line in this particular instance.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Kryptonite, magic, and red sun radiation are merely the most well-known "solutions" to the pre-Crisis Superman problem.Superman could be affected, rendered effectively powerless, or even overwhelmed and rendered senseless WHILE he had his powers through a surprising number of devices. The most practical solution available on Marvel Earth would probably be teleportation, or time/dimensional BFR. Here's an outrageous example of just how low tech such a device could be and still work ...
Oh there is no doubt about it in terms of a bunch of different devices affecting him.
I just feel Superman would murderize everyone before they can activate a device.