Well "compete" is defined as striving to outdo another, and engaging in an event and trying to be the victor. Technically speaking that's ever lightsaber duel, and every one of them is a competition.
Windu should compete, yeah, but not win. Every character has a shot at winning under the right circumstances, but on neutral ground it's played out fairly obviously that the likes of Dooku or Mace cannot beat the likes of Yoda or Palpatine.
Originally posted by MythLord
How about no? It's already blatantly confirmed that Sidious is his superior, or at the very least implied, and every source depicting the fight at least alludes to the idea that Palpatine let go. Arguing with a Windu fanboy on the subject has become rather redundant and usually goes nowhere.I don't have the time or the energy to run in circles, as I predict this'll go down that way.
Well Mace can compete with the Emperor... in the same sense Dooku can compete with Yoda.
Simply no, the mountain of canon evidence lies directly with the Mace winning side. Of that, there is no doubt
Originally posted by MythLord
Well "compete" is defined as striving to outdo another, and engaging in an event and trying to be the victor. Technically speaking that's ever lightsaber duel, and every one of them is a competition.Windu should compete, yeah, but not win. Every character has a shot at winning under the right circumstances, but on neutral ground it's played out fairly obviously that the likes of Dooku or Mace cannot beat the likes of Yoda or Palpatine.
Except Lucas clearly stated "you have to be Mace or Yoda to compete". In other words Dooku can't.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
He can say that all he wants, yet he never humiliated either Mace or Yoda with his Lightsaber.
No, but this does not counter my argument.
Doesn't matter as there are contradicting canon and Legend sources.As for the sources, well the ROTS script for one has Yoda disarming Palpatine and just about to kill him. Palpatine avoids the killing blow, but it clearly shows: 1) Yoda is capable of killing Palpatine and 2) Yoda > Palpatine in Sabers.
I know very well Yoda would stomp Sidious in a pure duel. What I'm aguing is the Force, which was the deciding factor in that fight.
The other canon source claiming it was a stalemate:https://jedi-bibliothek.de/blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/9781368003063-final-2.jpg
^ It's under Yoda's description "after Palpatine fought him to a standstill"
Fair enough.
Legends source claiming a near stalemate:
That was only in regards to the lightsaber fight. And that entire source depicts events differently from the movie, the novel and everything else, claiming that Yoda levitated and that they were even as lightsaber duelists. I'd say it's factually incorrect because of that.
LOL So what we just gonna ignore that Yoda later catches Palpatine's lightning in his bear hands? In fact he does that right after he lost his Saber..Call me crazy, but I would think catching Lightning in a Saber is slightly easier than catching it in your bear hands..
Um, yes, we are, because my point was that lightsabers are useless against Sidious.
Then we just gonna ignore how Yoda smacks Palpatine onto his ass right after?
Yes, we are, because that has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion, or the reason why I brought up that gif
Originally posted by MythLord
Yet Dooku can compete with Yoda, who in turn rivals Sidious. So y'know, he can. He just cannot win, just like Windu can't.
The circle this perpetuates give me a headache with how easily Sidious made Dooku his ***** from across the galaxy tbh
Well, that, and the entirety of Yoda vs Sidious when compared with that
Dooku competed with a Yoda that may or may not have been playing with kids gloves on
Fact of the matter being that Yoda vs Sidious leads to the general inference that Yoda definitely wasn't giving it his all as far as Force powers were concerned in AotC
You can throw all the C canon statements at me you want, the feats and direct comparison between showings bring light great contradiction *shrugs*
Originally posted by ChaosTheory123
The circle this perpetuates give me a headache with how easily Sidious made Dooku his ***** from across the galaxy tbhWell, that, and the entirety of Yoda vs Sidious when compared with that
Dooku competed with a Yoda that may or may not have been playing with kids gloves on
Fact of the matter being that Yoda vs Sidious leads to the general inference that Yoda definitely wasn't giving it his all as far as Force powers were concerned in AotC
You can throw all the C canon statements at me you want, the feats and direct comparison between showings bring light great contradiction *shrugs*
Keep in mind Tyranus likely wasn't defending himself, given how submissive a dog he is to Palpatine.
I'm also not arguing Force powers here, I'm arguing saber-dueling, where it's been stated Yoda only has a "slight edge" over Dooku and that the AotC novel doesn't seem to have Yoda holding back as much, yet still Dooku "parried brilliantly". Keep in mind Yoda, according to some sources, has even disarmed Sheev.
Seems to me like neither Dooku nor Mace are far behind Yoda or Sidious dueling-wise, they just don't have what it takes to win.
Originally posted by Ursumeles
Saber-wise: Dooku and Mace can compete with Yoda and Sidious.
Force-wise: they can't.
Which goes against Lucas's statement which states Mace can in fact compete with h Sidious. If he couldn't compete in the Force then he couldn't compete in an all out either.
Originally posted by MythLord
Yet Dooku can compete with Yoda, who in turn rivals Sidious. So y'know, he can. He just cannot win, just like Windu can't.
And yet Dooku was excluded from that statement of Lucas's.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
And yet Dooku was excluded from that statement of Lucas's.
And Luke was excluded from a statement that listed some of the greatest Jedi in history, and Tyranus was excluded from a list of Sith that were some of the most powerful in history -- doesn't mean they aren't a part of it, especially when they have accolades suggesting as such. Besides, wasn't Lucas just talking about the Jedi as it is?
By your logic, Anakin also wasn't included so Windu must be > Anakin, but Mace's own musings as well as Gillard's and Lucas' commentary marks Anakin at least on par with Mace.
Originally posted by MythLord
And Luke was excluded from a statement that listed some of the greatest Jedi in history, and Tyranus was excluded from a list of Sith that were some of the most powerful in history -- doesn't mean they aren't a part of it, especially when they have accolades suggesting as such. Besides, wasn't Lucas just talking about the Jedi as it is?
What Jedi/Sith lists were those? It's pretty rare for Lucas to make a statement, and this one was purposeful to explain the Windu vs Sidious fight.
I suppose it could be talking about Jedi. But then Anakin (being more powerful than Dooku) should have logically been included. To be fair though he was mentioned right after, but that seemed to be talking about Anakin's potential.
Originally posted by MythLordBy your logic, Anakin also wasn't included so Windu must be > Anakin, but Mace's own musings as well as Gillard's and Lucas' commentary marks Anakin at least on par with Mace.
Not necessarily. Just because you have to be Mace or Yoda to compete with Sidious, doesn't necessarily mean you have to be Yoda or Sidious to compete with Mace. The Anakin/Dooku/Kenobi triangle comes to mind.
Also like I said Anakin was sort of mentioned in that sentence, with his context not completely clear.
Originally posted by MythLord
Wasn't he serious the entire fight, though?
Apprently not. They were relatively even with Yoda holding the slight edge for the most part of the duel, but then Yoda decides he must end it, and virtually speedblitzes Sidious.
An end, I must make. Yoda redoubled the speed of his blows. Palpatine parried one, then another — and then the red lightsaber spun out of his hands and over the edge. Yoda raised his weapon for the final blow.
-RotS junior novel
