Originally posted by SunRazerThe junior novel says that Yoda wasn't trying to overpower Dooku, instead he renders his weapon "immovable."
The junior novel says that Yoda intended to stop Dooku. Overpowering him in a bladelock to disarm him is a perfectly good way of doing that.
And the script has Yoda trying to decapitate Dooku.And in that same script Yoda stomps, so?
Yeah, because Dooku was taunting Anakin and making him emotionally unbalanced. The script outright says that Anakin regains his composure afterwards and drives Dooku back - hence it's clear that Anakin had lost his composure during the saberlock. And there's an equivalent scene in the novel.Fair enough.
That was an enraged Ventress and it wasn't S4 Anakin.S3 and S4 exist within the same timeframe and "she was enraged" is a flimsy excuse. There is only one point in the fight in which her "rage" appears to translate into a significant leap in ability, for the rest of the engagement she is instead injured and yes, desperate, but the latter is not sufficient to allow her to deal with strength in excess of the most powerful Jedi and Sith in mythos lmao.
It's the same reason as why Maul was able to strain Sidious.So Ventress can strain Sidious too now?
You'll note Ventress was still being driven back in the first one.Not the point, point is that level of strength should have floored her.
And even if that wasn't the case, my point doesn't change - she would've simply been drawing on her reserves more and thus would've exhausted herself faster.That doesn't account for her performances at all, nothing short of a Mortis amp is going to make her able to deal with anything close to that level of power, period. And frankly? Dooku should have been stomped by it as well.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Through his mastery over the Force, yeah.
Not sure what difference that makes. In an all out S3 Pre-Mortis Anakin still struggled to subdue Ventress on one occasion and Savage on another with help. Whereas S4 Anakin is a near equal to Dooku.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Neither of which prove anything.
S3 Anakin was getting Force pushed and Choked by Ventress whereas S5 Anakin was Force choking Ventress, doesn't prove anything?
The underwater feat was Ani's biggest TK feat during TCW outside of Mortis as far as I remember.
Originally posted by BeniboyblingA slight slash on the arm? With a lightsaber? Lmao.
I seem to recall Dooku slightly slashing Kenobi's arm and leg in AOTC without it doing any permanent damage to Kenobi. And yes that was with a lmao lightsaber
We also know that both Obi-Wan and an Anakin when not holding back will chop limbs off as seen in ROTS.
So yeah there was massive Jedi restraint there.
Ventress on the other hand looked like she was going all out for the kill.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
That doesn't mean he can choke out Darth Sidious.
I'm not arguing he's stronger than Yoda or Palpatine. Just that since S4 (or post Mortis), Anakin was portrayed as much more powerful than in the earlier seasons, being a near equal to Dooku and with much fewer low showings.
Originally posted by Darth ThorA big one given that same mastery gave him an advantage against Anakin many times.
Not sure what difference that makes. In an all out S3 Pre-Mortis Anakin still struggled to subdue Ventress on one occasion and Savage on another with help. Whereas S4 Anakin is a near equal to Dooku.
Physically/combatively speaking though, Savage knocks Dooku on his ass and Ventress manages to hold his own against him in a blade lock. Beyond that, he kicks Ventress about and evades their attacks, much like he does against Anakin & Kenobi in S6. So I'm not seeing where this big disparity is.
S3 Anakin was getting Force pushed and Choked by Ventress whereas S5 Anakin was Force choking Ventress, doesn't prove anything?No because the circumstances surrounding Ventress' feat aside, that's the wrong season.
The underwater feat was Ani's biggest TK feat during TCW outside of Mortis as far as I remember.So? What proof is there he couldn't have accomplished it in S3?
I seem to recall Dooku slightly slashing Kenobi's arm and leg in AOTC without it doing any permanent damage to Kenobi. And yes that was with a lmao lightsaberHim being a master of refinement in a way Anakin and Kenobi are not, yeah. Anakin for one is more inclined to hack off a limb.
We also know that both Obi-Wan and an Anakin when not holding back will chop limbs off as seen in ROTS.No there wasn't, because Dooku was far more of a threat than Ventress and Anakin was pissed/out for revenge and likewise Kenobi was in a life or death situation and faced with the threat of the Sith takeover of the galaxy. The stakes were not remotely as extreme here.So yeah there was massive Jedi restraint there.
Regardless this is besides the point, the point is that a lack of intent to kill or seriously injure does not mean they holding much back in a holistic sense. Both restraint and compassion are key aspects of a way a Jedi fights, and they should not need to compromise these tenets to fight effectively.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
The junior novel says that Yoda wasn't trying to overpower Dooku, instead he renders his weapon "immovable."
No, it says that Yoda's weapon was immovable by the Count. In no way does that stop him from attempting to overpower Dooku as well.
And in that same script Yoda stomps, so?
It's a similar depiction to the novel, comic etc.
S3 and S4 exist within the same timeframe and "she was enraged" is a flimsy excuse. There is only one point in the fight in which her "rage" appears to translate into a significant leap in ability, for the rest of the engagement she is instead injured and yes, desperate, but the latter is not sufficient to allow her to deal with strength in excess of the most powerful Jedi and Sith in mythos lmao.
No, it's not a flimsy excuse. She starts of the fight by briefly incapacitating Obi-Wan and Pushing Anakin into a wall. There is a very significant leap in ability.
So Ventress can strain Sidious too now?
If you adopt the mentality that the circumstances (in this case, PIS rage) allow a fight to go any way, then I don't see what's so hard to believe here.
Not the point, point is that level of strength should have floored her.That doesn't account for her performances at all, nothing short of a Mortis amp is going to make her able to deal with anything close to that level of power, period. And frankly? Dooku should have been stomped by it as well.
According to what? Ventress has repelled blows from Savage under poor circumstances. She's done the same to Anakin in other circumstances. She's not as weak as you're making her out to be.
Originally posted by SunRazerSuggestion being that it wasn't moving, or rather that he was trying to keep him pinned.
No, it says that Yoda's weapon was immovable by the Count. In no way does that stop him from attempting to overpower Dooku as well.
On the other hand Yoda twice overpowers Sidious in a blade lock:
So why not the Count?
EDIT: Heck he does right here, case closed:
It's a similar depiction to the novel, comic etc.That's not my point, my point is that the version where Yoda goes for the kill, he stomps. That only suggests where he did not he was holding something back.
No, it's not a flimsy excuse. She starts of the fight by briefly incapacitating Obi-Wan and Pushing Anakin into a wall. There is a very significant leap in ability.Compared to what? The last time she pushed Anakin into a wall?
If you adopt the mentality that the circumstances (in this case, PIS rage) allow a fight to go any way, then I don't see what's so hard to believe here.Because Ventress doesn't remotely compare to Sidious. I'm not sure your aware how rage amps work. 😬
According to what? Ventress has repelled blows from Savage under poor circumstances. She's done the same to Anakin in other circumstances. She's not as weak as you're making her out to be.I'm not making her out to be weak lol, only highlighting how utterly outclassed by a Yoda+ tier opponent she should be, regardless of circumstance she would be obliterated - how Savage is relevant in that regard is beyond me.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Suggestion being that it wasn't moving, or rather that he was trying to keep him pinned.On the other hand Yoda twice overpowers Sidious in a blade lock:
Yoda's blade being immovable doesn't keep Dooku pinned at all. You're implying that Yoda isn't even putting pressure on the Count - so nothing stops Dooku from just disengaging.
Umm, the first one was with palpable exertion whilst Sidious was laughing, but that aside, we see Sidious overpowering Yoda in bladelocks as well. Clearly it goes either way.
EDIT: Heck he does right here, case closed:
Umm, do you even remember what we were discussing? We were discussing Anakin vs Yoda in strength, and you said the case is closed because you presented a feat for Yoda that Anakin replicated (actually, done better)? 😂
In no way does this close the case, lol.
That's not my point, my point is that the version where Yoda goes for the kill, he stomps. That only suggests where he did not he was holding something back.
My point is that it's not really a stomp since we're not given any time of reference. We just know that Yoda defended, then attacked, and Dooku retreated before being disarmed. We don't know how long each of those things took, but as I said, it seems to be similar to how the novel and especially the comic depicts. If you consider the comic portrayal a stomp, then fair enough.
It's also worth noting that Dooku managed to flick Yoda off his shoulder before being decapitated.
Compared to what? The last time she pushed Anakin into a wall?
lol The fact that she incapacitated Obi-Wan so quickly, compared to her other performances against him, is clearly proof that she's amped (it's obviously only a temporary boost that wears off as the fight goes on).
Because Ventress doesn't remotely compare to Sidious. I'm not sure your aware how rage amps work. 😬
Neither does Maul, lol. Besides, in the TCW movie, Anakin goes from being equal to Dooku to two-shotting him once enraged. Maul's rage let him go from being stomped by Sidious to challenging him in a bladelock, and Savage's rage allowed him to send Dooku flying despite the latter being far more powerful than him. TCW rage amps are pretty big.
I'm not making her out to be weak lol, only highlight how utterly outclassed by a Yoda+ tier opponent she should be, regardless of circumstance she would be obliterated - how Savage is relevant in that regard is beyond me.
lol Maul is also utterly outclassed by a Yoda+ tier opponent but his rage allowed him to challenge Sidious in a saberlock. You've literally presented nothing against Ventress that isn't also applicable to Maul.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
A big one given that same mastery gave him an advantage against Anakin many times.
Yeah it merealy gave him the advantage over Anakin, whereas it gave him the advantage over Opress and Ventress combined.
IOW S4 Anakin approx = Opress + Ventress combined in an all out.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Physically/combatively speaking though, Savage knocks Dooku on his ass and Ventress manages to hold his own against him in a blade lock. Beyond that, he kicks Ventress about and evades their attacks, much like he does against Anakin & Kenobi in S6. So I'm not seeing where this big disparity is.
Savage knocks Dooku on his ass, whereas Ventress holds her own with him in a bladelock? Hmm, if only Anakin had such physical feats against Dooku. Oh wait..
FYI Dooku was driving Ventress back their whole 1 v 1 fight, whereas it's S4 Anakin who drives Dooku back. Seeing the difference yet?
Anakin held his own in S6 against Dooku. He wasn't knocked around the way Kenobi/Ventress were. He even held his own 1 on 1, where Dooku ran away.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
No because the circumstances surrounding Ventress' feat aside, that's the wrong season.
Okay. But it's quite consistent given his improved S4 feats.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
So? What proof is there he couldn't have accomplished it in S3?
That's not for me to prove he couldn't. It's for you to prove he could. Especially given we know this guy grows tremendously more powerful throughout TCW.
S4 Anakin simply has better feats than S3 Ani. In combat and in TK (aside from Mortis of course).
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Him being a master of refinement in a way Anakin and Kenobi are not, yeah. Anakin for one is more inclined to hack off a limb.
Oh come on.. You're really telling me neither of these 2 Jedi are accurate enough to give a slight slash? Even though they're accurate enough to deflect multiple blaster fire fired at them from multiple angles? So much for Jedi coordination.
It wouldn't even have to be during Saber clashes. Could be when she was on the floor and they had their Sabers pointed at her demanding her surrender.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
No there wasn't, because Dooku was far more of a threat than Ventress and Anakin was pissed/out for revenge and likewise Kenobi was in a life or death situation and faced with the threat of the Sith takeover of the galaxy. The stakes were not remotely as extreme here.
Which shows the difference between Jedi going all out, and Jedi showing massive restraint. Ventress on the other hand was clearly going all out.
Also thanks for confirming Anakin properly lets loose on Dooku but not on Ventress. IOW he shows his true strength against real threats like him.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Regardless this is besides the point, the point is that a lack of intent to kill or seriously injure does not mean they holding much back in a holistic sense. Both restraint and compassion are key aspects of a way a Jedi fights, and they should not need to compromise these tenets to fight effectively.
Yes it is the Jedi way to massively hold back most of the time. Doesn't mean it doesn't hinder them in battle.
Originally posted by SunRazerI never argued that Dooku couldn't disengage. But in general its suggested that Yoda wasn't trying to overpower but stonewall him.
Yoda's blade being immovable doesn't keep Dooku pinned at all. You're implying that Yoda isn't even putting pressure on the Count - so nothing stops Dooku from just disengaging.
Umm, the first one was with palpable exertion whilst Sidious was laughing, but that aside, we see Sidious overpowering Yoda in bladelocks as well. Clearly it goes either way.What are you suggesting, that Sidious was holding back? I find that unlikely, but it's a moot point anyway given the second gif; and no, Yoda overpowers Sidious every time.
Umm, do you even remember what we were discussing? We were discussing Anakin vs Yoda in strength, and you said the case is closed because you presented a feat for Yoda that Anakin replicated (actually, done better)? 😂Very well thanks, in regards to which your case for Skywalker is debunked, leaving us with Yoda going toe-to-toe with Sidious and Anakin failing to overpower Ventress. Go figure.In no way does this close the case, lol.
My point is that it's not really a stomp since we're not given any time of reference. We just know that Yoda defended, then attacked, and Dooku retreated before being disarmed. We don't know how long each of those things took, but as I said, it seems to be similar to how the novel and especially the comic depicts. If you consider the comic portrayal a stomp, then fair enough.I'd say its implied that Dooku was quickly overpowered by Yoda in a stunning display. Regardless, he was disarmed either way.
It's also worth noting that Dooku managed to flick Yoda off his shoulder before being decapitated.Good for him.
lol The fact that she incapacitated Obi-Wan so quickly, compared to her other performances against him, is clearly proof that she's amped (it's obviously only a temporary boost that wears off as the fight goes on).Seems like PIS more than anything but I suppose the possibility is there.
Neither does Maul, lol.Aside from Maul being much stronger than Ventress, Sidious was holding back.
Besides, in the TCW movie, Anakin goes from being equal to Dooku to two-shotting him once enraged.Maul's rage let him go from being stomped by Sidious to challenging him in a bladelock, and Savage's rage allowed him to send Dooku flying despite the latter being far more powerful than him.Anakin was no less equal with him than he was here in AotC, and no rage-amp is implied (unless you'd argue that Anakin always has an amp when fighting Dooku, and in that way debunk your entire case); Maul never challenged Sidious in a blade lock, Sheev merely met his attack them swiftly overpowered him; and Dooku's abilities far surpass Savage's, but evidently not his strength, given that the latter was not operating under an abnormal emotional state in that situation.
TCW rage amps are pretty big.Not in the way you'd think, or rather like, as its becoming increasingly clear to me that "rage amp" is merely a term you employ to explain away situations that are disagreeable to you. mmm
lol Maul is also utterly outclassed by a Yoda+ tier opponent but his rage allowed him to challenge Sidious in a saberlock. You've literally presented nothing against Ventress that isn't also applicable to Maul.Sidious is not a Yoda+ tier opponent tbh. And naturally I didn't believe I needed to since the example you're trying to raise is fabricated nonsense. 🙂
Originally posted by Darth ThorWhat? No. Ventress and Opress never combined their attacks, Force-based or otherwise. You can't make that kind of comparison.
Yeah it merealy gave him the advantage over Anakin, whereas it gave him the advantage over Opress and Ventress combined.IOW S4 Anakin approx = Opress + Ventress combined in an all out.
Savage knocks Dooku on his ass, whereas Ventress holds her own with him in a bladelock? Hmm, if only Anakin had such physical feats against Dooku. Oh wait..No, not really.FYI Dooku was driving Ventress back their whole 1 v 1 fight, whereas it's S4 Anakin who drives Dooku back. Seeing the difference yet?
Anakin held his own in S6 against Dooku. He wasn't knocked around the way Kenobi/Ventress were. He even held his own 1 on 1, where Dooku ran away.He still got kicked, tripped etc. point is Dooku is just much more agile.
Okay. But it's quite consistent given his improved S4 feats.Not really, for all we know he could have done that in S3 as well.
That's not for me to prove he couldn't. It's for you to prove he could. Especially given we know this guy grows tremendously more powerful throughout TCW.I don't need to prove a claim you made lol. And the fact he grew tremendously powerful over the course of the Clone Wars does not mean he did so between a single season.
S4 Anakin simply has better feats than S3 Ani. In combat and in TK (aside from Mortis of course).And RotS Yoda has better feats that AotC Yoda, this means nothing.
Oh come on.. You're really telling me neither of these 2 Jedi are accurate enough to give a slight slash? Even though they're accurate enough to deflect multiple blaster fire fired at them from multiple angles? So much for Jedi coordination.Considering that in all their years they've never been known too either 1. they are not practiced 2. they do not prefer to.
It wouldn't even have to be during Saber clashes. Could be when she was on the floor and they had their Sabers pointed at her demanding her surrender.
Which shows the difference between Jedi going all out, and Jedi showing massive restraint. Ventress on the other hand was clearly going all out.No its merely a question of degrees, one does not have to be either going all out or massively holding back.Also thanks for confirming Anakin properly lets loose on Dooku but not on Ventress. IOW he shows his true strength against real threats like him.
Yes it is the Jedi way to massively hold back most of the time. Doesn't mean it doesn't hinder them in battle.Now your just throwing out claims. Why exactly does the intent to injure or kill demand one hold make "massively" as you continue to assert? When Jedi are surely taught how to disable an opponent non lethally?
Heck why be abstract when we can be specific, why exactly, if he possessed the ability to do so, would Anakin not try to floor, stagger or otherwise pin Ventress here?
Or refrain from applying the necessary strength to keep Ventress from escaping here?
Other than to unnecessarily prolong the fight? No reason I can fathom.