1. The things we debate in these forums have never happened and probably will never happen in continuity, either. That doesn't invalidate them. We discuss what can happen, not what did.
I don't think there's any sort of "authority" with non-canon material. Just equivalent veracity to material in the same source. We're not discussing authority, we're discussing reliability.
2. According to you. I see it differently. Hence, my offer to agree to disagree on the grounds of irreconcilable differences stands.
3. Game creators do care about consistency within their own game, at the very least. They may not care about the rest of continuity, but they'll try to care about consistency within their own game. It's laughable to assume that they're willing to change power levels and everything on a whim. You're basically saying that we can't take anything in video games at all because they're all subject to change on the whim of the creator.
4. Yes, I do. All information that exists within a single creator's work (ie. not including author quotes, which are separate from the original source material) has equal value and is assumed to be consistent until disputed. And this dispute clearly can't be resolved, so again, agree to disagree. It's just that our fundamental view of these things is too different to ever reconcile.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Krayt had just implanted visions of Cade's future into his mind. Obviously he would assume he knew what Cade was thinking.Sidious is constantly reading Vader's mind, lol. That he failed to do so at that critical point is PIS.
Calm down, lol. I said the RotS game doesn't portray characters in the same way as, say, the RotS novel or something. But it's still consistent [b]with itself
. There's no contradiction within itself.And that's my point. The DS ending of TFU was not made to be independent or contradictory to the game itself. So the Galen in the DS ending is the same Galen as the one in the LS ending, and the same goes for Palpatine.
The difference being that the entirety of the RotS game isn't canon, not just the DS ending. Whereas TFU is canon, and it's not in its own pocket universe like the RotS game. The RotS game was never meant to be belong in the same universe as everything else (notice that's why I never bring up RotS game feats in general). TFU was. So the RotS DS ending keeps in step with itself, the RotS game, which is its own pocket universe anyway, with its own character power levels, its own events, etc. Whereas the TFU DS ending keeps in step with itself, being TFU, which is part of continuity. The same applies to KotOR, KotOR II or TOR. Or the JK series or any other canon game that is part of Legends continuity and not its own pocket universe with its own power levels. [/B]
Why? What reason would he have to assume Cade's actions or the success of his manipulations after the fact?
Or maybe it's the fact that he had no reason to question Vader's actions given that Vader's response was consistent with actions over the last twenty years and the fact that he couldn't understand the motivation of paternal love given his deep corruption by the Darkside.
"And that's my point. The DS ending of TFU was not made to be independent or contradictory to the game itself. So the Galen in the DS ending is the same Galen as the one in the LS ending, and the same goes for Palpatine."
THAT'S THE ENTIRE POINT OF A NON CANON ENDING!!! TO BE INCONSISTENT WITH ACTUAL EVENTS. Like, holy shit. It's in the name for god's sake.
Except the difference is the non canon ending is NOT part of continuity. And therefore DIDN'T occur and was NOT MEANT to occur. There's absolutely ZERO reason it would need to retain accuracy.
1. Because he clearly does so in the comic?
2. And despite Vader's continual commitment to the dark side, the Emperor still reads his mind. No excuse.
3. I already told you I understand what "canon" means. It doesn't happen - it's not official. But it's part of the same game. It's part of the same source material. So the only grounds on which you can dismiss it is that the author can decide to make things inconsistent on a whim, in which case all material from the games is equally affected.
You're not even understanding my point (and yet you're pretending to). It physically hurts me to have this conversation.
EDIT: But I'll try and simplify it one last time. All material in the games has to be treated equally. Either they're all made by the creator in an identical mindset, or they're all subject to inconsistency on the creator's whim. In either case, all material from one source holds equal veracity. You just choose whether game itself is consistent or not. And if it's not, then all material in the game can't be taken at face value.
Originally posted by SunRazer
1. The things we debate in these forums have never happened and probably will never happen in continuity, either. That doesn't invalidate them. We discuss what [b]can happen, not what did.I don't think there's any sort of "authority" with non-canon material. Just equivalent veracity to material in the same source. We're not discussing authority, we're discussing reliability.
2. According to you. I see it differently. Hence, my offer to agree to disagree on the grounds of irreconcilable differences stands.
3. Game creators do care about consistency within their own game, at the very least. They may not care about the rest of continuity, but they'll try to care about consistency within their own game. It's laughable to assume that they're willing to change power levels and everything on a whim. You're basically saying that we can't take anything in video games at all because they're all subject to change on the whim of the creator.
4. Yes, I do. All information that exists within a single creator's work (ie. not including author quotes, which are separate from the original source material) has equal value and is assumed to be consistent until disputed. And this dispute clearly can't be resolved, so again, agree to disagree. It's just that our fundamental view of these things is too different to ever reconcile. [/B]
1. "The things we debate in these forums have never happened and probably will never happen in continuity, either. That doesn't invalidate them."
For the purposes of using it as evidence in debates? Hell yes it does.
"We discuss what can happen, not what did."
And why does that have any relevancy on the matter of using non canon events as evidence?
2. "I don't think there's any sort of "authority" with non-canon material. Just equivalent veracity to material in the same source. We're not discussing authority, we're discussing reliability."
And that's fine but as I said there's no reason that non canon material needs to be accurate meaning it's useless as evidence to support a stance.
3. "Game creators do care about consistency within their own game, at the very least. They may not care about the rest of continuity, but they'll try to care about consistency within their own game. It's laughable to assume that they're willing to change power levels and everything on a whim. You're basically saying that we can't take anything in video games at all because they're all subject to change on the whim of the creator."
For the most part events that occur in video games do occur on whims but at least with cut scenes or unchangeable actions there's some level of consistency and thought out action. With gameplay mechanics and non canon events there's no motivation other then to create something entertaining. Not even a motivation to remain consistent.
4. "Yes, I do. All information that exists within a single creator's work (ie. not including author quotes, which are separate from the original source material) has equal value and is assumed to be consistent until disputed. And this dispute clearly can't be resolved, so again, agree to disagree. It's just that our fundamental view of these things is too different to ever reconcile."
It's not even the same game creator who made each of the versions of TFU. There was somebody different for the Wii, there was somebody different for the Xbox and there was somebody different for the god damn handhelds.
Originally posted by SunRazer
1. Because he clearly does so in the comic?2. And despite Vader's continual commitment to the dark side, the Emperor still reads his mind. No excuse.
3. I already told you I understand what "canon" means. It doesn't happen - it's not official. But it's part of the same game. It's part of the same source material. So the only grounds on which you can dismiss it is that the author can decide to make things inconsistent on a whim, in which case all material from the games is equally affected.
You're not even understanding my point (and yet you're pretending to). It physically hurts me to have this conversation.
EDIT: But I'll try and simplify it one last time. All material in the games has to be treated equally. Either they're all made by the creator in an identical mindset, or they're all subject to inconsistency on the creator's whim. In either case, all material from one source holds equal veracity. You just choose whether game itself is consistent or not. And if it's not, then all material in the game can't be taken at face value.
1. And? He was wrong. The difference being Sidious manipulated Anakin since early childhood for around 2 decades while Krayt attempted to influence Cade by showing him a false future when they had been about to fight anyways. They're not comparable.
2. Wtf. Vader just had his arm chopped off and Sidious was having the time of his life torturing Luke. He was at the height of his powers and had no reason to suspect a challenge to it let alone by Vader who he thought to be a beaten and broken dog. Call it overconfidence or whatever you like but the fact is RotS Sidious was far more aware of Anakin's mental state and ambitiousness then RotJ Sidious's was of Vader's.
3. In regards to game play this is true anyways. Regardless what I'm saying in regards to continuity ( which I believe a game creator would generally try to keep consistent ) is that a non canon event doesn't need to retain consistency unlike events that were confirmed to happen within the canon path.
Then stop having it because honestly you're not getting anywhere by attempting to use non canon events to support your point.
NO!!! That's not it. The difference between a non canon event and ones that actually occured within canon is that THERE IS NO IMPETUS FOR A NON CANON EVENT TO BE CONSISTENT. Do you understand?
Originally posted by SunRazer
Somebody tell Syn that I was using a cutscene and not a game mechanic, and that all of TFU has the same director/story writer.Although it sounds, Syn, like you should be accepting that Palpatine can blitz the PS2, PSP and Wii versions of Galen, at least?
I'm aware that you were using a non canon cutscene where the writer has no reason at all to retain consistency. Game mechanics share that special status of not needing to retain consistency with the rest of canon.
No, not now. Not ever. You ridiculous man.
I can understand this mindset in regards to an RPG.
The non canon darkside endings for TFU are there to be entertaining though and in the case of the first TFU specifically to put Galen into a suit to be a Darth Vader copy that got to walk around Tatooine and Hoth and f*ck shit up so that people would pay an extra $10.00 for a DLC.
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNovaNo, not now. Not ever. You ridiculous man.
Irreconcilable differences 🙂
Seriously, though, you think they built up the entire game just so that they would only follow through in one ending and throw it all away in another ending? Hilarious. I'm so tempted to call bias but we know that would never work, don't we? 🙂
Originally posted by SunRazer
Irreconcilable differences 🙂Seriously, though, you think they built up the entire game just so that they would only follow through in one ending and throw it all away in another ending? Hilarious. I'm so tempted to call bias but we know that would never work, don't we? 🙂
Yeah, I really do because of the fact that they made an entire sequel based on the actual canonized events of the Lightside ending and made a cash grab DLC with the non canon Darkside ending. Do I believe they made an entire game to throw away one of the endings? What a f*cking joke of a question. The darkside ending was never even in consideration.
Originally posted by Ursumeles
Wait...to the Anakin "blitzing" Sidious thing.Cade catching Krayt offguard, who doesn't even trusted him, is legit; but Sidious getting catched offguard by the man he manipulated for years, and formed since a decade, isn't.
Or do I misunderstand Syn?
I never brought up Cade or Krayt. That was Nova. Personally no, I don't think Cade caught Krayt off guard but Nova does apparently.
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Yeah, I really do because of the fact that they made an entire sequel based on the actual canonized events of the Lightside ending and made a cash grab DLC with the non canon Darkside ending. Do I believe they made an entire game to throw away one of the endings? What a f*cking joke of a question. The darkside ending was never even in consideration.
*shrug* Your call for how you see it.