Rocky vs IP Man

Originally posted by juggerman
Yes he can change but he is not prepared to protect himself from what IP does. Leg kicks, throws, joint hits and all that mess. I just don't see Rocky being able to defend against it all without previous knowledge of IP's fighting style

Well he didn't fight Drago like he intended to fight Lang. In the Lang fight, Rocky ran out and took the fight to him as soon as the fight started. With Drago and everyone else he just ate punches until he was able to unleash the Kraken!

Yes Rocky's durability is the issue for IP. But it's mostly his head imo. IP can unleash precise jabbing hits in joints to weaken Rocky's offense and defense as he has done in the past and is very good at. Also, and this is not for sure but IP might hit harder than Drago. IP has sent mofos FLYING with hits in a way Drago has not. Creed also endured several hits from Drago before he was felled. I'm not trying to take away from Drago, he's a beast, but due to the way kung fu films are choreographed, most martial artists are portrayed as being able to do inhuman things. IP isn't as crazy as some are but he still is crazy strong.

I mean joint hits and throws are good and all, but what good did they actually do vs his boxer opponents? They did some damage, I agree, but would they really be enough to take out Rocky?

Will have to rewatch IP man, I don't recall any simple hits sending ppl flying. I think it also comes down to understanding that while martial arts movie choreography would have ppl being sent flying at times, we need to take that "unrealistic choreography" factor into consideration and not take it literally when measuring what a character can do. Averaged out, he's also been shown punching undefending ppl in the head over and over without cracking the head open while a single punch from Drago would likely crush the head like an egg.

Also, while Creed did take quite a few hits before getting killed, it is fair to mention that Creed doesn't have a weak chin either as he was able to take direct hits from Rocky as well.

Originally posted by juggerman
I'd say actor stats. This is the Movie VS so I'd say we stick to the film

I dunno. I've always considered:

explicit writer's intent > visual evidence

So it comes down to if the writer wanted to portray the actual (tho loosely based and romanticized) IP Man and not a fictional IP Man.

Again, I dunno. Maybe ask a mod?

Originally posted by Nibedicus
I mean joint hits and throws are good and all, but what good did they actually do vs his boxer opponents? They did some damage, I agree, but would they really be enough to take out Rocky?

Will have to rewatch IP man, I don't recall any simple hits sending ppl flying. I think it also comes down to understanding that while martial arts movie choreography would have ppl being sent flying at times and trying not to apply it directly or at least put that "unrealistic choreography" factor into consideration and not take it literally when measuring what a character can do. Averaged out, he's also been shown punching undefending ppl in the head over and over without cracking the head open while a single punch from Drago would likely crush the head like an egg.

Also, while Creed did take quite a few hits before getting killed, it is fair to mention that Creed doesn't have a weak chin either as he was able to take direct hits from Rocky as well.

Well the joint hits weaken the opponent's ability to attack or defend effectively. I don't think it would KO the Rocko but it would turn the fight heavily in IP's favor

I just rewatched fight scenes from 1 and 2 and I think I misremembered stuff. While he did send a few guys flying at times, you are correct in saying it wasn't typically average hits. The one that I thought of was the fight in part one in his house. He caught the guy with what looked like a light knee and he flew pretty good. There are also a few instances when mid fight he lifts the opponent in the air with ridiculous ease and is able to spin them or manipulate their body in some other way that should be impossible. His strength is pretty high end. And keep in mind, IP holds back 99% of the time. Probably an exaggerated estimate but he holds back a shit ton. 😄

To be fair, I don't recall Rocky's punching power to be mentioned or shown to be above average for a boxer. Yes he KO'd some monsters but in every case they were exhausted by that point. Creed 12th round no KO, Creed 12th round KO, Lang barely noticed his punches in the first fight and in the second only sold them after he was gassed. Drago got cut early on but he was also no selling Rocky's hits at first and really only commented on Rocky's durability not strength. "He's like a piece of iron" I took as his durability. Even with that high durability Rocky has had trouble with taking several hits in a row. Clubber's corner barrage is similar to something IP would do and that torn that ass up. An assault like at the end of IP Man 1 would spell serious trouble for the Italian Stallion

Originally posted by Nibedicus
I dunno. I've always considered:

explicit writer's intent > visual evidence

So it comes down to if the writer wanted to portray the actual (tho loosely based and romanticized) IP Man and not a fictional IP Man.

Again, I dunno. Maybe ask a mod?

I just think it would be too confusing to bring the RL guy into a movie debate. We know he didn't do all the stuff in the film so why use him?

Asking a mod would probably be the best bet to avoid needless arguments tho

Ok. Gonna pause the debate as it is time for me to take my pain meds and maybe get some sleep. Good discussion.

To be continued. 🙂

Edit.

Did an edit and messed up the formatting. 🙁 brb.

Fuuuuuu...! I lost my entire post on and edit mistake....

@&$@$!!!!!!!!!!!!1111!!!oneone

Well, that's a heartbreaker...

That logic doesn't work because Apollo Creed and Clubber Lang who both hit well below Drago downed him with punches multiple times. We know its not supposed to be that high.

Same token even though Frank wasn't measured he actually showcased superhuman strength.

Originally posted by KingD19
That logic doesn't work because Apollo Creed and Clubber Lang who both hit well below Drago downed him with punches multiple times. We know its not supposed to be that high.

Same token even though Frank wasn't measured he actually showcased superhuman strength.

Well, they did say in that world, on average, boxers hit with an average 700 psi.

https://www.reference.com/sports-active-lifestyle/hard-boxer-punch-psi-154e820f7237a5b1

Does say that boxers hit with a max force of 1,200-1,500 psi. But I don't know where they got their numbers and how accurate it is as they cite no sources.

So right now, a bit confused about how PSI works im boxing.

Edit. Rechecked their "source": http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/columns/straight-dope/article/13039270/straight-dope-the-physics-of-punching-someone-in-the-face

Still don't know where they got the 1500 psi punch and how they determined 4 sq inches was the punch area of Drago.

Anyway, to try and reconstruct the meat of my lost post from earlier:

The Rocky movies made a mistake in using PSI instead of lb force. What this means is that: while 2150 lb force would be a borderline superhuman in the real world, the fact that the punch was per square inch means that you still have to multiply the contact surface area of the punch vs the PSI of the punch itself.

Meaning that the inhuman 2150 PSI still needs to be multiplied to Drago's gloved fist's surface area (which is what he used during the tests) which (according to http://www.jasonthalken.com/2014/02/surface-area-measurements-for-26.html) would be around 20+ sq inches. Meaning he could have been hitting for over 40k lbs or 20 tons of freakin force. Superhumanly impossible.

Basically, a scripting error made it that the Rocky world is inhabited by Spiderman-level superhumans.

My question is that do we take explicitly quantified numbers literally or do we acknowledge that writers make mistakes and go for the logical numbers taking into consideration the mistake (similar to acknowledging that sometimes they get physics wrong when doing "feats"😉? My mind is on the latter being true. But you cannot argue how explicitly it was done in the movie as it was bare faced quantified in a lab and done multiple times. Things like this certainly put my strictness-to-evidence mindset to the test.

Edit. Bear in mind that I am not an expert on punch physics and that if anyone can chime in and correct me, I would really appreciate it.

Originally I was going to go with Ip Man, but he just has a pretty bad record against heavy weight boxers. I mean, he did win against Twister, but that was considering Twister had gloves on and Ip had to dig deep in his bag of tricks.

He could always use the same strategy against Rocky but Rocky seems tougher and more skilled than twister.

Rocky (as per feats) is probably the most durable opponent Ip Man will face and probably one of the strongest. I don't know if Ip Man has what it takes to go the distance against a heavy weight like Rocky. but then there are the kicks, which Rocky has zero experience against. So for now I'll say 5/5 wins on both sides. Maybe 6/10 in Rocky's favor just because he has more feats of taking punishment and still keep going.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Originally I was going to go with Ip Man, but he just has a pretty bad record against heavy weight boxers. I mean, he did win against Twister, but that was considering Twister had gloves on and Ip had to dig deep in his bag of tricks.

He could always use the same strategy against Rocky but Rocky seems tougher and more skilled than twister.

Rocky (as per feats) is probably the most durable opponent Ip Man will face and probably one of the strongest. I don't know if Ip Man has what it takes to go the distance against a heavy weight like Rocky. but then there are the kicks, which Rocky has zero experience against. So for now I'll say 5/5 wins on both sides. Maybe 6/10 in Rocky's favor just because he has more feats of taking punishment and still keep going.

Gloves back then had far less padding than they do now. And even today gloves are only so the boxers don't break their hands punching each other, not to protect your face. Tyson for example can knock you out just as easy with gloves on as off.

Also in that fight against Twister, Ip was heavily handicapped and had to change his entire fighting style, only relying on specialized techniques and a very limited move set since Wing Chun uses legs, holds, and throws just as much if not more than fists. But if he uses the same techniques, Rocky will fall victim to them the same way. And he's never fought anyone who does more than box so he'll be at a disadvantage.

But the most important thing is he has a great record against Heavyweight boxers. He fought 2. He beat Twister who killed a man, and he tied with Frank who is stronger based on feats than any boxer that's ever been in Rocky. This is more important because Frank was bare fisted and was launching Ip with every clean hit, yet they tied. Also he's a lot faster than Rocky.

Originally posted by juggerman
Well the joint hits weaken the opponent's ability to attack or defend effectively. I don't think it would KO the Rocko but it would turn the fight heavily in IP's favor

I just rewatched fight scenes from 1 and 2 and I think I misremembered stuff. While he did send a few guys flying at times, you are correct in saying it wasn't typically average hits. The one that I thought of was the fight in part one in his house. He caught the guy with what looked like a light knee and he flew pretty good. There are also a few instances when mid fight he lifts the opponent in the air with ridiculous ease and is able to spin them or manipulate their body in some other way that should be impossible. His strength is pretty high end. And keep in mind, IP holds back 99% of the time. Probably an exaggerated estimate but he holds back a shit ton. 😄

To be fair, I don't recall Rocky's punching power to be mentioned or shown to be above average for a boxer. Yes he KO'd some monsters but in every case they were exhausted by that point. Creed 12th round no KO, Creed 12th round KO, Lang barely noticed his punches in the first fight and in the second only sold them after he was gassed. Drago got cut early on but he was also no selling Rocky's hits at first and really only commented on Rocky's durability not strength. "He's like a piece of iron" I took as his durability. Even with that high durability Rocky has had trouble with taking several hits in a row. Clubber's corner barrage is similar to something IP would do and that torn that ass up. An assault like at the end of IP Man 1 would spell serious trouble for the Italian Stallion

Pressure strikes are good and all in movies, but you rarely ever see them in actual MMA fights. It is due to the high difficulty and marginal effectiveness these strikes have. Risk-reward is too low to be a smart go-to during real fights. Especially when the opponent's defensive stance, footwork and head movement makes these even harder to do. Now the kicks (w/c will circumvent Rocky's reach advantage) would be his best bet. But even then, his boxer opponents have been shown pretty capable at tanking/defending against them.

I don't think IP has anywhere the power of Clubber Lang. So I also don't think IP's attacks would have anywhere the same effect. If we go by portrayals, I feel that the writer's intent was that IP's attacks are fast and precise than anything else. Rocky's durability scaled up in the Drago fight so even the Clubber fight is a poor reference. Again, by the time of the Drago fight, he took likely dozens of direct clean hits to the face by a puncher that had borderline superhuman power. IRL, a single clean direct hit would KO or kill any boxer. Rocky used his face as a weapon against Drago's fists (and it worked!). 😛 If IP tries to launched a barrage like he sometimes does, I'd bet good money Rocky would tank it all and IP woukd end up taking a hook/over hand to the face.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Pressure strikes are good and all in movies, but you rarely ever see them in actual MMA fights. It is due to the high difficulty and marginal effectiveness these strikes have. Risk-reward is too low to be a smart go-to during real fights. Especially when the opponent's defensive stance, footwork and head movement makes these even harder to do. Now the kicks (w/c will circumvent Rocky's reach advantage) would be his best bet. But even then, his boxer opponents have been shown pretty capable at tanking/defending against them.

I don't think IP has anywhere the power of Clubber Lang. So I also don't think IP's attacks would have anywhere the same effect. If we go by portrayals, I feel that the writer's intent was that IP's attacks are fast and precise than anything else. Rocky's durability scaled up in the Drago fight so even the Clubber fight is a poor reference. Again, by the time of the Drago fight, he took likely dozens of direct clean hits to the face by a puncher that had borderline superhuman power. IRL, a single clean direct hit would KO or kill any boxer. Rocky used his face as a weapon against Drago's fists (and it worked!). 😛 If IP tries to launched a barrage like he sometimes does, I'd bet good money Rocky would tank it all and IP woukd end up taking a hook/over hand to the face.

We see Ip has more than enough speed/skill/technique to use the pressure points, and they worked fine on Twister. No matter how durable Rocky is, his body can't ignore physics. That's why no matter how good a punch you can take, a slap on the cheek still hurts. Your bones and muscle can't block something not pure solid force.

And Ip has shown more power than Clubber based on feats. Plus he has his entire moveset, where he was casually maneuvering black belts to snap bones.

Originally posted by KingD19
He beat Twister who killed a man, and he tied with Frank who is stronger based on feats than any boxer that's ever been in Rocky. This is more important because Frank was bare fisted and was launching Ip with every clean hit, yet they tied. Also he's a lot faster than Rocky.

Drago killed a man, too. A world champ pro heavyweight boxer at that.

I disagree with Frank being faster than Rocky (if that is what you mean). And Drago's punches were clocked at 2150 psi. This is spiderman level strong if we take it literally. Borderline superhuman if we use logic and consider the fact that Rocky writers may have gotten PSI wrong. So how is Frank better based on feats?

Originally posted by KingD19
We see Ip has more than enough speed/skill/technique to use the pressure points, and they worked fine on Twister. No matter how durable Rocky is, his body can't ignore physics. That's why no matter how good a punch you can take, a slap on the cheek still hurts. Your bones and muscle can't block something not pure solid force.

And Ip has shown more power than Clubber based on feats. Plus he has his entire moveset, where he was casually maneuvering black belts to snap bones.

If you're going to take chinese martial arts choreography and its wonky physics literally, it would be fair for me to take 80s wonky script writing literally and say that Drago punches at 2150 psi. Otherwise, we need to step back and understand that chinese movies have wonky physics in their choreography and 80's movies can have their physics wrong.

Originally posted by KingD19
Gloves back then had far less padding than they do now. And even today gloves are only so the boxers don't break their hands punching each other, not to protect your face. Tyson for example can knock you out just as easy with gloves on as off.

Also in that fight against Twister, Ip was heavily handicapped and had to change his entire fighting style, only relying on specialized techniques and a very limited move set since Wing Chun uses legs, holds, and throws just as much if not more than fists. But if he uses the same techniques, Rocky will fall victim to them the same way. And he's never fought anyone who does more than box so he'll be at a disadvantage.

But the most important thing is he has a great record against Heavyweight boxers. He fought 2. He beat Twister who killed a man, and he tied with Frank who is stronger based on feats than any boxer that's ever been in Rocky. This is more important because Frank was bare fisted and was launching Ip with every clean hit, yet they tied. Also he's a lot faster than Rocky.

Oh please. Anyone who says gloves weren't made to protect your face has never been punched in the face with a bare fist. Yes, the gloves will protect the boxers hands, but the first and primary function of gloves has always been to protect the opponent from sever injury. You can't even spar properly without gloves. You'll end up cutting each other up within the first round.

Tyson can knock you out with or without gloves but that won't change the fact that his punches will hurt a lot more (and will be harder to block) without gloves.

Ip was handicapped in his match against Twister but he still utilized a lot more tricks than Twister, who basically stuck to pure punching. Can't say the same against Frank though, because Ip man utilized his entire arsenal against Frank and still couldn't beat Frank even though Frank only used fists. So you can't say that Rocky will immediately be crippled when faced with Ip Man's full set of moves because obviously (as Frank demonstrated) pure boxing is still very effective against Wing Chun.

You can say that Frank is stronger than Rocky as per feats but Rocky is far more durable, as per feats.

And yes Ip is faster, but Rocky is bigger, heavier and stronger. People in the MvF like to prop "speed" like it's the most important thing in a fight. Truth is in the real world, unless you have a massive advantage in speed then it's almost always size and strength that makes a big difference in a fight (other than skill of course).

Hey Froth, did you read what I wrote regarding the physics error they had in Rocky IV? They used psi instead of lbs. Making Drago's punch hit for around 20 tons. Lol.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Drago killed a man, too. A world champ pro heavyweight boxer at that.

I disagree with Frank being faster than Rocky (if that is what you mean). And Drago's punches were clocked at 2150 psi. This is spiderman level strong if we take it literally. Borderline superhuman if we use logic and consider the fact that Rocky writers may have gotten PSI wrong. So how is Frank better based on feats?

Well they both punched men to death. Creed was 43, retired for 5 years and way out of shape when he fought Drago. So titles in front of boxer don't really hold up.

And Frank is faster than Rocky, shown by how easily he fought Ip who is crazy fast. For example the Northerner couldn't even lay a hand on him in the first movie.

We know he's not Spidey strong, as if he was his first hit(he wasn't holding back) against Creed or Rocky would have sent them flying if not killed them immediately. Borderline is more likely, but Frank would be in the same realm, just stronger.

Frank is better because when he hits people, they get launched off their feet. A jab from his back sent Ip sliding across the floor. And better because he's fast enough to keep pace with Ip. Do you really think Rocky is in that realm of speed? Because his entire style is basically soak up punches then punch back. That won't work against a guy who can snap his arm or leg.

YouTube video

Originally posted by FrothByte
Oh please. Anyone who says gloves weren't made to protect your face has never been punched in the face with a bare fist. Yes, the gloves will protect the boxers hands, but the first and primary function of gloves has always been to protect the opponent from sever injury.

Tyson can knock you out with or without gloves but that won't change the fact that his punches will hurt a lot more (and will be harder to block) without gloves.

Ip was handicapped in his match against Twister but he still utilized a lot more tricks than Twister, who basically stuck to pure punching. Can't say the same against Frank though, because Ip man utilized his entire arsenal against Frank and still couldn't beat Frank even though Frank only used fists. So you can't say that Rocky will immediately be crippled when faced with Ip Man's full set of moves because obviously (as Frank demonstrated) pure boxing is still very effective against Wing Chun.

You can say that Frank is stronger than Rocky as per feats but Rocky is far more durable, as per feats.

And yes Ip is faster, but Rocky is bigger, heavier and stronger. People in the MvF like to prop "speed" like it's the most important thing in a fight. Truth is in the real world, unless you have a massive advantage in speed then it's almost always size and strength that makes a big difference in a fight (other than skill of course).

I've been hit by both. But regardless of what you say, look it up. Boxing gloves primary purpose is to keep the boxers from shattering their hands punching each other for 12 rounds. Of course they also protect the face, but that's the main focus on making sure boxers can still punch when the fight is over.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxing_glove

https://www.quora.com/Why-do-boxers-wear-gloves

Frank is on another level than Twister and that's obvious from the fight they had. Even using his full arsenal, Frank was launching him around the room and going blow to blow, even when they took it to the ground.

It's not just Ip's speed. He has better feats of striking than Rocky. And he can bypass his durability by just snapping his leg, or elbow, or chopping him in the throat.