Bane vs. Crossbones

Originally posted by FrothByte
This is a valid question which deserves a proper answer, and the answer is this: we use the person with more consistent feats as the basis, the one we gauge off from. In this instance, Cap has far more feats so we use him as a base and compare Rumlow off him - in which case we can say it was a good feat for Rumlow.

Now if Rumlow had more feats than Cap which clearly showed him to be nothing more than average then we can say it was a bad showing for Cap. But this is not the case.

False. Regular humans have plenty of showings. We know their limits. If a regular human hung with Superman then it's a bad showing for Superman. PIS even.

When you say regular human, you mean guys like Bane and Baleman, right?

Originally posted by h1a8
Prove that he had superhuman damage soak and striking power.

I already have. I've repeatedly referenced the feats to support my claim. I still asked you to provide a clip of an un-enhanced MCU human doing the same, to back your claim that he was just "regular". Something which you have yet to do. But hey, if you want to ignore valid screen feats, that's your problem.

Originally posted by FrothByte
This is a valid question which deserves a proper answer, and the answer is this: we use the person with more consistent feats as the basis, the one we gauge off from. In this instance, Cap has far more feats so we use him as a base and compare Rumlow off him - in which case we can say it was a good feat for Rumlow.

Now if Rumlow had more feats than Cap which clearly showed him to be nothing more than average then we can say it was a bad showing for Cap. But this is not the case.

It would be a lower-end showing for Steve, but it is still also a high-end showing for Rumlow. And that is because of Steve's other feats. He has hung with plenty of superhuman individuals, and even bested some of them, and has scores of feats quickly and easily taking out regular humans. So, Rumlow being able to hang with, considering the other information we have, is a high-end for him.

Originally posted by h1a8
False. Regular humans have plenty of showings. We know their limits. If a regular human hung with Superman then it's a bad showing for Superman. PIS even.

Why are you bringing Superman into this? Rumlow is being discussed. He has far less feats than Cap which means Cap is the bar for comparison. Unless you have some feats for Rumlow that prove he's just a regular fighter?

Originally posted by FrothByte
I'd like to add that Rumlow is clearly a very high ranking SHIELD agent, and we've seen in Agents of SHIELD just how good high-end SHIELD agents can be.

Bane has a good durability showing but did he really show that je was that skilled a fighter?

That's where I get hung up at: I have never watched Agents of SHIELD. From what I've gathered on these forums, however, then any high-tier AoS operative should be enough of a match for TDKR Bane. If Rumlow is around that level, he should win the day.

And agreed, Bane has skill and strength, but not enough to make up the difference in either attribute (let alone fighting speed and agility) against a Black Widow type. He was a brute that, in the Nolanverse, could combat Balemen's strengths: stealth, striking strength, and armored durability. Bane walked all over those 3 attributes while spouting a monologue. However, in about any other mainstream comic cinematic universe, he gets trashed. Goons like the Joker's sunglasses and jacket guy in the belfry in Batman 1989 could probably take him.

All things considered, I think Bane's durability might be enough to outlast Rumlow until he can get a few good shots in and get a fight-ending combo or backbreaker in. But that's a big 'if', and I'm inclined to say Rumlow is skilled enough to land enough hits to either KO Bane or exploit the mask weakness, in which case a KO is bound to happen sooner or later.

EDIT: Just saw your first post in the thread, Froth. Those are the AoS characters that I usually hear having an impressive list of fighting feats. So:

- If Rumlow is anything like them, he wins.
- If its Crossbones, Bane gets obliterated.
- Per Rumlow's limited pre-suit screen feats in h2h and Bane's strengths and weaknesses discussed at length, its a close fight that can go either way, IMO.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
I already have. I've repeatedly referenced the feats to support my claim. I still asked you to provide a clip of an un-enhanced MCU human doing the same, to back your claim that he was just "regular". Something which you have yet to do. But hey, if you want to ignore valid screen feats, that's your problem.

Human flesh is not bulletproof. Cap supposedly has damaged things far above human flesh. If a normal human tanks hits from Cap then either
1. Human flesh>>>>>human flesh (illogical)
Or
2. Cap punched with less than human flesh destroying

Originally posted by h1a8
How? I ask you for the first time? If you posted proof before my question then simply re quote or tell me which page you posted it on.

Human flesh is not bulletproof. Cap supposedly has damaged things far above human flesh. If a normal human tanks hits from Cap then either
1. Human flesh>>>>>human flesh (illogical)
Or
2. Cap punched with less than human flesh destroying

This thread is only 3 pages long, are you saying that 3 pages is more than your capable of reading?

Originally posted by h1a8
How? I ask you for the first time? If you posted proof before my question then simply re quote or tell me which page you posted it on.

Human flesh is not bulletproof. Cap supposedly has damaged things far above human flesh. If a normal human tanks hits from Cap then either
1. Human flesh>>>>>human flesh (illogical)
Or
2. Cap punched with less than human flesh destroying

I mentioned some of the examples in the actual post you quoted when you asked me to "prove" it (as well as in a post before and after that). So, either you are trolling, don't even properly read the posts you quote, or are unable to actually comprehend basic English.

Also, if you had actually watched the fight in question, which I am now convinced you have not, you would have known that, beyond the enhanced damage soak, Crossbones also wore thick body armour (Which I have also mentioned in this thread before, and it really is not hard to find. This thread is only 3 pages long and I started posting about this on page 2), further enhancing his durability against Steve's hits.

Originally posted by Silent Master
This thread is only 3 pages long, are you saying that 3 pages is more than your capable of reading?

This is the exact same tactic he used to try and dodge my one question (about Cap replacing Hulk in the slamming scenario) in the Loki vs Spiderman thread.

Originally posted by John Murdoch
That's where I get hung up at: I have never watched Agents of SHIELD. From what I've gathered on these forums, however, then any high-tier AoS operative should be enough of a match for TDKR Bane. If Rumlow is around that level, he should win the day.

And agreed, Bane has skill and strength, but not enough to make up the difference in either attribute (let alone fighting speed and agility) against a Black Widow type. He was a brute that, in the Nolanverse, could combat Balemen's strengths: stealth, striking strength, and armored durability. Bane walked all over those 3 attributes while spouting a monologue. However, in about any other mainstream comic cinematic universe, he gets trashed. Goons like the Joker's sunglasses and jacket guy in the belfry in Batman 1989 could probably take him.

All things considered, I think Bane's durability might be enough to outlast Rumlow until he can get a few good shots in and get a fight-ending combo or backbreaker in. But that's a big 'if', and I'm inclined to say Rumlow is skilled enough to land enough hits to either KO Bane or exploit the mask weakness, in which case a KO is bound to happen sooner or later.

EDIT: Just saw your first post in the thread, Froth. Those are the AoS characters that I usually hear having an impressive list of fighting feats. So:

- If Rumlow is anything like them, he wins.
- If its Crossbones, Bane gets obliterated.
- Per Rumlow's limited pre-suit screen feats in h2h and Bane's strengths and weaknesses discussed at length, its a close fight that can go either way, IMO.

This is a good summary. My own personal hang up is durability. We already know Rumlow is fast. Based on how he was knocking Sam around, he hits pretty hard as well. And, considering his rank in SHIELD/HYDRA, and the levels all the higher end guys there have been portrayed as operating at, on AoS, he is very skilled (which is supported by him having a decisive edge against Sam, and being the only one out of 10 guys to tag Cap, in the elevator scene fro CA:TWS).

However, we never see him take many punches. He takes one hit from Sam, onscreen, (two, if we include the comic), but that doesn't tell us that much. And, once Cap actually got hold of him in the elevator, he put him down very quickly. So, his pre-Crossbones durability is a bit of a grey area.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
This is a good summary. My own personal hang up is durability. We already know Rumlow is fast. Based on how he was knocking Sam around, he hits pretty hard as well. And, considering his rank in SHIELD/HYDRA, and the levels all the higher end guys there have been portrayed as operating at, on AoS, he is very skilled (which is supported by him having a decisive edge against Sam, and being the only one out of 10 guys to tag Cap, in the elevator scene fro CA:TWS).

However, we never see him take many punches. He takes one hit from Sam, onscreen, (two, if we include the comic), but that doesn't tell us that much. And, once Cap actually got hold of him in the elevator, he put him down very quickly. So, his pre-Crossbones durability is a bit of a grey area.

👆

I see h1 is back to usual stupidity

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
I mentioned some of the examples in the actual post you quoted when you asked me to "prove" it (as well as in a post before and after that). So, either you are trolling, don't even properly read the posts you quote, or are unable to actually comprehend basic English.

Also, if you had actually watched the fight in question, which I am now convinced you have not, you would have known that, beyond the enhanced damage soak, Crossbones also wore thick body armour (Which I have also mentioned in this thread before, and it really is not hard to find. This thread is only 3 pages long and I started posting about this on page 2), further enhancing his durability against Steve's hits.

I seen ALL the movies. I don't have perfect recall though. Some of you guys watch these movies and comb for feats. I don't. I just rely on memory of what stands out. It's common for humans to send people flying in fighting movies. Doesn't mean they have superhuman strength. Actually people have been sent flying in real life from kicks.

I'll look at the feats. I don't consider the taser feat as proof he can withstand a punch to the face better than a human can.

Bane and Batman is not slow and are good fighters!
Some people insist on going by visual acting speed as the actual speed the character is moving at. This is wrong. The movie DELIBERATELY wants to show us what's happening. Any trained fighter has to be faster than the average human by a large margin.

Batman in his first appearance takes out 12 thugs in 21 seconds. He has to be hella fast and skilled to do such a thing. 5 thugs or less could beat a professional fighter.

See from 2:41 to 3:02
YouTube video

Here at 9:25 to 9:35 is where Nolan says he uses cut scenes to show how blindingly quick Batman is. Also the video gives the entire theory to how Batman fights.
YouTube video
In that video you see that Nolan wasn't going for the aesthetically pleasing but the very effective and instinctual. People base skill off aesthetics.

Here Batman beats 4 highly trained ninja warriors. There is no way in hell Batman is slow and not skilled, especially dodging fast as hell attacks and sword swipes.
YouTube video

Batman, while injured is powerful enough to shatter bricks.

Batman one shot several humans, especially one time when he drags an adult male with one hand and casually koes another human with a back punch.

Bane is fast too. He casually dodged Batman's strikes after purposely getting hit with them. Bane is super strong. He busted through solid concrete like it was tissue paper. Batman tanked many of his hits which says a lot to Batman's durability. Batman koing 12 thugs in 21 seconds says a lot to Batman's power. Yet Bane NO SOLD Batman's strikes.

Since you want to go off "implied" speed, then Crossbones was able to land hits on a super-soldier, someone who would be far faster than any normal human. so using your logic. CB has far better speed feats.

Originally posted by h1a8
I admit I didn't read the entire post. Apologies. You should know that I never do things like that intentionally.

I seen ALL the movies. I don't have perfect recall though. Some of you guys watch these movies and comb for feats. I don't. I just rely on memory of what stands out. It's common for humans to send people flying in fighting movies. Doesn't mean they have superhuman strength. Actually people have been sent flying in real life from kicks.

What does RL kicks have to do with anything? Or other fictional movies? This is set in the MCU, so we compare him to other MCU humans. And even if we include others, the vast majority of action heroes can't do it like Crossbones did. He sent Cap flying back 10+ feet with some strikes (you can see that visually, as well as in the amount of steps he has to give while walking to close the distance between him and Steve, after punching him). And Steve didn't tumble or roll that distance. He was actually airborne. And Crossbones punched a fist-sized crater in a cement wall (might have actually been concrete, but hard to say). Rumlow also punched a bulletpoof door off its hinges and sent it flying back into a large, metal cabinet, with enough force to move it, when going after the bioweapon he wanted. They made an explicit point of showing that the piston arms packed superhuman striking power.

Originally posted by h1a8

I'll look at the feats. I don't consider the taser feat as proof he can withstand a punch to the face better than a human can.

It's not just the feat, but the fact that he said, "I don't work like that no more", while it was happening, that shows us that he is the one whose damage soak has changed. And we visibly see him take multiple shots to the head from Cap without much trouble. It was not simply his own damage soak, but also his armour that contributed, but the bottom line is that he had all of that (and the piston arms) during his fight with Cap. Once Cap took those things away from him, it was instantly game over.

Originally posted by h1a8
Bane is super strong. He busted through solid concrete like it was tissue paper.

Lets address this misconception.
Bane is strong but not as much as you want people to think. It may seem like he busted through solid concrete in that pillar punch scene. That wasn't the case upon closer inspection. The pillar was NOT solid concrete.
Based "on the screen feat" the pillar composed more of a drywall type material, and not solid at all.

A solid concrete pillar does not behave that way when you punch it , no matter how strong you are.
So the pillar is a pillar made out of drywall or something very similar to that material.

screen feats>speculation

We've known it was a decorative column for years, h1 exaggerating feats for the characters he likes is just slightly less common than his low-balling of feats for characters he wants to lose.

H1 has trouble with the concept of using screen feats. He thinks his opinions trump screen feats.