Ben Kenobi >> Darth Vader?

The idea of Vader using telekinetic powers during his fight with Luke was created during story meetings. There was concern, however, that the audience might think back to the first film and wonder why Vader didn't use all his powers on Ben; but this was easily explained by the fact that Ben was probably stronger than Vader. George Lucas and Leigh Brackett also discussed the different levels of the Force; maybe Ben was a six, Vader was a four, Luke is now at level two.

-Star Wars: The Annotated Screenplays

Some of these ideas were apparently thrown around during the developement of ESB. Are they valid or not?

Discuss.

It doesn't matter given it wasn't even hinted at and later sources say different things anyway.

Well, he obviously isn't stronger based on the fight and other official sources.

Granted, they were referring to specifically telekinesis, but still.

What other sources are you referring to?

That's pretty interesting actually

Wasn't it hinted Vader try to TK him in one of the comics, but failed?

The idea was undeniably scrapped, as Ben obviously isn't more powerful than Vader.

Still, interesting bit of information.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
The idea was undeniably scrapped, as Ben obviously isn't more powerful than Vader.

Still, interesting bit of information.

👆

An equal to Vader still in ANH and he bested him in rots. Only time Vader won is when Kenobi allowed it to happen. Pitiful.

Originally posted by quanchi112
An equal to Vader still in ANH and he bested him in rots. Only time Vader won is when Kenobi allowed it to happen. Pitiful.

You always bash people for ignoring context. Well how about you follow your own advice?

You very well know the context of their RotS duel and why that outcome does not indicate that Kenobi is the superior combatant.

Originally posted by Petrus
You always bash people for ignoring context. Well how about you follow your own advice?

You very well know the context of their RotS duel and why that outcome does not indicate that Kenobi is the superior combatant.

I hear excuses for Vader and his pitiful history of losing limbs, pride, and even his wife. The guy is one of the saddest and most failure ridden characters in cinematic history.

Not true as we all know.

Originally posted by quanchi112
He took everything Anakin had to offer in an extended duel and lost. He pleaded with Anakin to stand down because he wasn't in a good position. Anakin being the man child he was leapt to his peril. Kenobi was always wiser, calmer, and well rounded at critical moments.

I hear excuses for Vader and his pitiful history of losing limbs, pride, and even his wife. The guy is one of the saddest and most failure ridden characters in cinematic history.

What about Maul losing his legs, his Sith Master, his legacy within the RoT, his resources, basically everything? And how about Sheev making him his ***** again, after killing his brother? And then him desperately clinging to an artifact of power while trapped in a dark planet, alone and broken? If you consider Vader a failure, I'd say Maul qualifies as well, based on his track record. 😬

Anyway. Anakin was pushing Obi-Wan back since their blades crossed for the first time in Mustafar. Kenobi was always on the run, always being backed up against walls. He was the one who actually jumped off the corridors and onto the giant machines because he couldn't hold Anakin's sheer strength. Anakin managed all of this while emotionally and mentally broken.

Aside from this, Obi-Wan and Anakin knew each other's forms perfectly well, a factor that severely influences the duel. Everyone knows Anakin was the superior duelist up to this point.

Quanchi is right

Are you afraid to oppose your master, coward?

Originally posted by Petrus
What about Maul losing his legs, his Sith Master, his legacy within the RoT, his resources, basically everything? And how about Sheev making him his ***** again, after killing his brother? And then him desperately clinging to an artifact of power while trapped in a dark planet, alone and broken? If you consider Vader a failure, I'd say Maul qualifies as well, based on his track record. 😬

Opress being killed by someone superior to Maul means what against him ? Maul killed Qui but I guess that doesn't count as to his list of accomplishments. Maul someone survived a huge fall without his legs and rose to power. He escaped and tricked Pre into a duel in which he won to cement his position as the leader of those forces.

Anyway. Anakin was pushing Obi-Wan back since their blades crossed for the first time in Mustafar. Kenobi was always on the run, always being backed up against walls. He was the one who actually jumped off the corridors and onto the giant machines because he couldn't hold Anakin's sheer strength. Anakin managed all of this while emotionally and mentally broken.

Aside from this, Obi-Wan and Anakin knew each other's forms perfectly well, a factor that severely influences the duel. Everyone knows Anakin was the superior duelist up to this point. [/B]

Kenobi was torn in half too emotionally since his brother just descended into the dark side and he witnesses him kill younglings. Couple this with his awareness of Padme's pregnancy and Anakin as the father and he was really in a bad place as well. He didn't want to do this while Anakin was convinced in a Sith mindset in what he was doing. Kenobi even pleads with him not to jump to force him into critically injuring Anakin. Losing to someone you're better than is a huge shot at that persons skill level competency.

The passes Vader gets and the double standards need to stop.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
The idea was undeniably scrapped, as Ben obviously isn't more powerful than Vader.

Still, interesting bit of information.

Where is it stated he isn't?

Originally posted by quanchi112
Overconfidence and a set back after skillfully disarming and leaving Kenobi at his mercy. Sheev was superior to him losing after Maul gave a valiant not something to be mocked.

So Maul was 'valiant' and is 'not to be mocked' because you say so, right? While Vader gets to be trashed, is pathetic and is a failure also because you say so. Okay, sure. I see how this works.

You're just emotionally invested or upset over the current value of the peso and you're lashing out at Maul.

ROFLMAO. That was a very good cheap shot. Well done. 👆

Opress being killed by someone superior to Maul means what against him ? Maul killed Qui but I guess that doesn't count as to his list of accomplishments.

That logic is just absolutely terrible.

Maul someone survived a huge fall without his legs and rose to power. He escaped and tricked Pre into a duel in which he won to cement his position as the leader of those forces.

Vader survived 3rd degree burns throughout all of his body, losing all of his limbs and being basically destroyed by burning lava. He rose to power afterwards and became one of the galaxy's most feared individuals. Two can play this game.

Emotions are running wild all the time in Star Wars. What you Vader fanboys have done is somehow created excuses or passes as to explain away his losses. Doesn't work that way. Kenobi was a wreck after watching Qui die or Satine killed by Maul. So Anakin isn't the only guy with emotions running wild in the midst of a duel against a highly trained/skilled adversary.

Kenobi was not a wreck, he was feeding off his rage, just like Anakin did against the poor Sand People. Not a comparable situation. An emotionally stable and mentally balanced Anakin would've tooled Kenobi, and we all know it, not just us "Vader fanboys". You denying it doesn't change shit. Why don't you go check Gillard's tiers, hm?

Kenobi was torn in half too emotionally since his brother just descended into the dark side and he witnesses him kill younglings. Couple this with his awareness of Padme's pregnancy and Anakin as the father and he was really in a bad place as well. He didn't want to do this while Anakin was convinced in a Sith mindset in what he was doing. Kenobi even pleads with him not to jump to force him into critically injuring Anakin. Losing to someone you're better than is a huge shot at that persons skill level competency.

Again, you're completely ignoring the context and also blatantly ignoring the fact that Anakin pushed him back basically the whole fight. 😬

The passes Vader gets and the double standards need to stop.

The passes you give Maul and the double standards need to stop.

Matt Serra beat GSP once you know.

Shit happens. But to anti-Vader trolls, Vader will lose to Kenobi 100% of the time.

There's levels for the Force too?

Yooo lets gooo