Azronger's musings

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I don't recall Valkorion trying to unbalance the Force like that at any point of his lifetime. Therefore, no quantifiable comparison possible in this case. And this is a lame example to cite as a quantifiable showing because it represents an exertion of will on a source that offered no resistance to such an effort and the entire development has philosophical underpinnings. Perhaps the Force wanted them to do that so it would have a justification for creating the Chosen One in response and show them that they are not in control?

If Darth Plagueis really had cosmic-level Force powers, he would have one-shotted the Jedi Order and more. He wouldn't have needed an apprentice either. He wouldn't have bothered studying midichlorians. Think about it.

Valkorion's showings on Zoist firmly put him above Darth Plagueis in strength and Force powers in a quantifiable manner since Darth Plagueis was not even willing to challenge a single professional army on his own, let alone an entire planet worth of opposition including many Jedi. Don't bother trying.

On the other hand no, I never said Plagueis had cosmic level Force powers, but that he was able to impact the Force on a cosmic level, try to comprehend the difference.

Nonetheless care to elaborare on this "professional army" Plagueis wasn't prepared to challenge? No idea what you're on about.

That is interesting.

However, lack of context and explanation about how he did that. It is like saying Hitler defeated much of Europe but no mention of how he accomplished that.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
i was never even vouching for the legitimacy of AP's claim as I haven't even bothered to look into it myself. Only commenting that expecting Star Wars to follow physics and such is retarded as nearly all the showings we use RL logic/facts to determine it's impressiveness would be shot.

E.I. Plague is vauntedly moving as fast as lightning, and so on.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
But if the case is based on RL physics how else would you disprove it?

As I said, I never checked out the feat myself so I can't really judge.

If the Sun did visibly - and tangibly - change for one color to the next, then it should check out with out the nitpicks. If being the keyword because it could have just been AP reaching just to one-up Valkorion. Back to the point, we can say this and that about physics, but as I said before, we can't expect Star Wars to follow every aspect of RL logic/physics.

As I said, we can do that to others, too. When we use the RL speed of lightning to claim Plagueis is as fast as lightning, why eonwe ignore the fact that someone with the mass of Plagy and Ven, moving at that speed, would have caused major collateral damage to the forest?

Plagueis and Venamis were described as moving like lightning, nowhere is Ziost confirmed to have changed its output as a star, that is an assumption being made off of real world physics that you have you yourself, criticised as unreliable.

So naw, again its arbitrary to make exceptions were the logic doesn't check out.

Nah, it said they looked like lightning striking, you do know 200,000 + MPH isn't required to mimic the visual representation of lightning, right? especially with weapons as bright and illuminated as lightsabers....

And as i said before, did the sun actually change colors to a visible degree?

If it did, he affected it in some sort of tangible way - whether he altered it's life cycle or not, is another discussion.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
As I said, we can do that to others, too. When we use the RL speed of lightning to claim Plagueis is as fast as lightning, why eonwe ignore the fact that someone with the mass of Plagy and Ven, moving at that speed, would have caused major collateral damage to the forest?

Why bring Tolkien gods into this? 🙁

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Nah, it said they looked like lightning striking, you do know 200,000 + MPH isn't required to mimic the visual representation of lightning, right? especially with weapons as bright and illuminated as lightsabers....

And as i said before, did the sun actually change colors to a visible degree?

If it did, he affected it in [b]some sort of tangible way - whether he altered it's life cycle or not, is another discussion. [/B]

And it does change colour in some way yeah:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNJ-8gdi8TA&t=44s

But if we are going to try to read this using conventional physics, we can't pick and choose which rules we apply. It doesn't check out going by those rules, so the reading is bunk.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Why bring Tolkien gods into this? 🙁

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Why bring Tolkien gods into this? 🙁

ehehe. xD

@Beni: Fair enough on the lightning part, I guess, as it's not here nor there anyway.

As for the sun/changing it's life stage, yeah - I'd say bringing in the physics AP did, is a reaching on Mr. Fantastic's level and the physics don't really check out as you stated, but changing the color of a star is still pretty impressive in of itself.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
What a way to change the goal posts, my point is that if Plagueis can do this, fiddling with the Force on Nathema would be child's play.

Unbalancing the Force with a prolonged meditative effort and replicating Nathema are two entirely different matters (and acts). The former act involved exertion of WILL of the participants upon the Force in order to unbalance it (further) under the right circumstances (full explanation below) while the latter act was devised to prolong corporeal life of the orchestrating participant by virtue of consuming the living and the Force in the surroundings. The formation of the largest nexus of the Dark Side and subsequent eradication of the Force around Nathema, were visible and intended (side-effects) of the latter deed. In short, the former act was a strictly MENTAL EXERCISE while the latter act was an ALTER EXERCISE or combination of both.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
On the other hand no, I never said Plagueis had cosmic level Force powers, but that he was able to impact the Force on a cosmic level, try to comprehend the difference.

Risen out of themselves, discorporate and as a single entity, they had brought the power of their will to bear, asserting their sovereignty over the Force. No counterforce had risen against them.

Taken from Star Wars: Darth Plagueis

Emphasis mine: the aforementioned accomplishment is not a demonstration of raw power of characters involved because it does not involves use of corporeal strengths and Force powers. This was a strictly mental exercise to influence the balance of the Force to the benefit of the Dark Side. More important is the fact that the Force offered no resistance to the Sith partaking in that controversial course-of-action. And before that deed, the participants had to wait for the right moment to exploit the balance of the Force to their advantage as clearly stated earlier in the novel:

But in any case this is why the Jedi Order has descended into decadence and is dragging the Republic down with it. Because the Jedi have lost the allegiance of the Force. Yes, their ability to draw energy from the Force continues, but their ability to use the Force has diminished. Each of their actions engenders an opposite, often unrecognized consequence that elevates those attuned to the dark side; that buoys the efforts of the Sith and increases our power. Yet our use of that power requires delicacy. We must be alert to moments when the light side falters and openings are created. Then, and only then— when all the conditions have been met—can we act without fear of meeting resistance or repercussion.

Taken from Star Wars: Darth Plagueis

They noticed that the Jedi Order was loosing its touch with the ways of the Force with passage of time by virtue of a series of miscalculations (deliberate or goaded into), and those miscalculations worked in the favor of the Banite Sith who would see opportunities in them to expedite the tilt of the Force towards the Dark Side (even in proactive manner at times). In connection to this all, corruption was becoming rampant in the galaxy and Sith benefited from it. Another point to consider is that all living beings collectively influence the balance of the Force. Greater the magnitude of corruption across the galaxy and the inability of the Jedi Order to handle such developments, greater would be the tilt towards the Dark Side. Coming back to the point, Darth Tenebrous found an opportunity and exploited it (the so-called rend in the Force in the philosophical context). Darth Plagueis and Palpatine would also find one and expand on the earlier effort.

Indeed:

"They see dark times ahead. In fact, they think of little else. That’s why they have allowed the Jedi to become involved in parochial conflicts like those at Galidraan, Yinchorr, and Baltizaar, which are like brush fires born of windblown embers from a massive blaze just beyond the horizon. But instead of actually rising up against the corruption in the Republic, perhaps disbanding the Senate entirely for a period of time, they have become fixated on prophecy. They await the coming of a prophesized redeemer who will bring balance to the Force and restore order."

"A redeemer?" Palpatine stared at him in authentic
surprise.

Taken from Star Wars: Darth Plagueis

The aforementioned information represents just one side of the coin. The other side is WILL OF THE FORCE.

Two observations to consider:

1. The prophesy of the Chosen One

2. Darth Tenebrous noted that the Sith will ascend under the right circumstances:

Tenebrous had tried to persuade Plagueis that the Force did not play games of chance with the galaxy; and that while the fated ascendancy of the dark side could be predicted, its rise could not be influenced or hurried by the Sith.

Taken from Star Wars: Darth Plagueis

3. The Force willed the partnership of Darth Plagueis and Palpatine:

The fact that the Force had not struck back argued that their partnership was something unique and in accordance with the will of the Force.

Taken from Star Wars: Darth Plagueis

Emphasis mine: the Force has a WILL of its own and strives for balance. Everything that happens, is in part due to its design. Force-users and living beings in general can influence the balance of the Force but such events are in consort with the WILL of the Force. The Force willed the triumph of Banite Sith during the era of Palpatine, only to throw the Chosen One at them and eradicate it through him. Lesson is that the Sith thought that they had made the Force subservient to them but they were absolutely wrong. The Force works in mysterious ways and is beyond the comprehension of mere mortals as Revan once remarked: "we are only scratching its surface."

IN CONCLUSION: Darth Plagueis could not impact the Force on a cosmic level [on his own] and [in the manner you presume] and by no means the effort to tilt the Force towards Dark Side is a quantifiable feat of strength or Force power of a character. This entire development is circumstantial and has philosophical underpinnings.

Therefore, your overreaching nonsense should end right here. Study the damn novel and other sources properly before jumping to silly conclusions.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Nonetheless care to elaborare on this "professional army" Plagueis wasn't prepared to challenge? No idea what you're on about.

"The next few hours will test the limits of your agility, speed, and accuracy," Plagueis said, as several hundred of the biggest, bravest, and most skilled warriors—their bodies daubed in pigments derived from plants, clay, and soil—began to separate themselves from the crowds. "But this is more than some simple exercise in our rise to ultimate power, and therefore servants of the dark side of the Force. Centuries from now, advanced by the Sith, they might confront us with projectile weapons or energy beams. But then we will have evolved, as well, perhaps past the need for this rite, and we will come instead to honor rather than engage them in battle. Through power we gain victory, and through victory our chains are broken. But power is only a means to an end."

Taken from Star Wars: Darth Plagueis

The primitive Kursid warriors did not offer a formidable challenge to a Sith Lord in the battlefield and were therefore deemed (safe) for target practice by much of the Banite lineage. However, a professional army is another matter altogether and a Sith would need to evolve further to challenge a professional force in the battlefield on his own. Something not deemed feasible by Darth Plagueis. Call it lack of confidence or ability, Valkorion have smoked entire worlds.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Lmao. I imagine he did it with the Force.

You continue to mistake developments with philosophical underpinnings for quantifiable demonstrations of strength or Force ability of a character which is becoming ridiculous. Drop this nonsense altogether.

Excuse me? That is like saying buying all cars in a showroom is child's play in comparison to creating one in the garage. Ridiculous.

Unbalancing the Force with a prolonged meditative effort and replicating Nathema are two entirely different matters (and acts). The former act involved exertion of WILL of the participants upon the Force in order to unbalance it under the right circumstances (see explanation below) while the latter act was devised to prolong corporeal life by consuming the living in the surroundings. The formation of the largest nexus of the Dark Side and subsequent eradication of the Force around Nathema, were (side-effects) of the latter deed. In short, the former act was a strictly MENTAL EXERCISE while the latter act was an ALTER EXERCISE or combination of both.

snip

So yes, in that respect Plagueis with Palpatine's help was able to exert his will on the Force and in doing so unbalance it. Whether or not this was an opportunistic act the fact remains he did it, and the evidence that this was part of the Force's design (hint: the only design of the Force is that is strives for balance) is nil, in fact, in upsetting the cosmic balance they were in direct defiance of it.

And lol at your last point, all Plagueis is saying is that by that point the rite may of become irrelevant, nowhere does he admit that it would be an insurmountable enemy for him.

No, he didn't. See above.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
That's not what I was referring to at all. Try paying attention next time.

Will and power are synonymous, in fact, Plagueis believed that through sheer will power he could achieve all manner of Force feats. Through strength of will Palpatine could create Force storms etc. I'm not sure on what basis you've decided otherwise.

So yes, in that respect Plagueis with Palpatine's help was able to exert his will on the Force and in doing so unbalance it. Whether or not this was an opportunistic act the fact remains he did it, and the evidence that this was part of the Force's design (hint: the only design of the Force is that is strives for balance) is nil, in fact, in upsetting the cosmic balance they were in direct defiance of it.

And lol at your last point, all Plagueis is saying is that by that point the rite may of become irrelevant, nowhere does he admit that it would be an insurmountable enemy for him.

Yes, yes he did. He rent a whole in the Force using the Force.

Of-course, WILL precedes an ACT. However, the ACT of influencing the balance of the Force on the part of duo of Darth Plagueis and Palpatine was a strictly MENTAL EXERCISE and it has a huge set of circumstances written all over it as elaborated by me in my earlier post by connecting the relevant dots. This development is by no means a confirmation of Darth Plagueis having Cosmic-level Force powers or superiority over Valkorion in the aspects of raw power and Force ability, aspects that are actually quantifiable and meaningful in assessing the power of a character.

First, pay proper attention to what I stated in my earlier post and then bother to respond. Your knee-jerk reactions are not helping this discussion, rather a sign of desperation on your part. Most importantly, present quantifiable arguments for Darth Plagueis as to why he is superior to Valkorion. No more Force unbalance and rend philosophical nonsense.

Lmao no need to get upset dear.

Again the fact it was a MENTAL EXERCISE means very little, mental exercises just to be behind all forms of Force application, and often determine the magnitude of that ability, its absolutely meaningful and quantifiable in that sense and holistically far beyond any pithy displays of raw powuur Valkorion has accomplished. In fact both Sidious & Plagueis believed that WILL was in fact the key to true power.

And once again, I never said Palpatine or Plagueis have cosmic level Force powers, but were merely able to influence the Force on a cosmic level. Try to understand the difference. 🙂

But no, I don't plan to go over anything. I've long since dispensed with the idea of engaging with you in an extensive debate, better things to do with my time sry. 🙁

you would be better off wanking the implication that HoT was prophesied by the force itself to defeat vitiate, as a counteract against Plagueis & Sidious in-balancing, LeG.

as of now, you're fighting a losing battle.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Lmao no need to get upset dear.

Again the fact it was a MENTAL EXERCISE means very little, mental exercises just to be behind all forms of Force application, and often determine the magnitude of that ability, its absolutely meaningful and quantifiable in that sense and holistically far beyond any pithy displays of raw powuur Valkorion has accomplished. In fact both Sidious & Plagueis believed that WILL was in fact the key to true power.

And once again, I never said Palpatine or Plagueis have cosmic level Force powers, but were merely able to influence the Force on a cosmic level. Try to understand the difference. 🙂

But no, I don't plan to go over anything. I've long since dispensed with the idea of engaging with you in an extensive debate, better things to do with my time sry. 🙁

Dry those tears.

sw legend, valk isn't even pod bane level, deal with it

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
you would be better off wanking the implication that HoT was prophesied by the force itself to defeat vitiate, as a counteract against Plagueis & Sidious in-balancing, LeG.

as of now, you're fighting a losing battle.

I addressed his assumptions with vital information and significant investment of time, only for him to ignore it all and continuation of parroting his nonsense. This is why I no longer find these discussions meaningful.

Idiots and college drop-outs don't deserve my valuable time and attention. I have better things to do in life.

The goddamn irony, lmao.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I addressed the fallacies in the assumptions of that idiot with vital information and significant investment of time, only for him to ignore it and continue parroting his nonsense.

This is why I no longer find these discussions meaningful. Idiots and college drop-outs don't deserve my valuable time and attention.