Originally posted by deathslash
ha, no. Snake eyes is easily a bullet timer and almost every version of him is resistant to mind control. The guy's easily blitzed entire companies of Cobra soldiers, killed cyborgs, sensed enemies that nobody else (including jinx and stormshadow) could see, and his pain tolerance is within the punisher/joker tier. This is a good fight no matter what you might think.
Lamont has faced and defeated many bullet timers and has plenty of bullet timing feats himself. In one Dynamite issue he was the target of a room full of gunman firing at him and none could land a shot.
Not that thats why I'm even saying he wins. His stealth is a level or two abode almost any other fictional character I can think of. He's almost always on someone before they even know he's there.
Yes Snake eyes has the advantage in pure h2h skill (though I wouldnt say by a massive margin), but that isnt all Cranston brings to the table. There's also his marksmanship to consider that frankly is up there close behind Deadshot and Bullseye. His stealth that is good enough the DC version could shadow (pun intended) the great Batman for a week or two unseen (and shoot the knife out of a Batman attackers hand from a range Bats couldnt put an exact point to - WITH a hand gun)
The op didnt say pure H2H and didnt say they coukd t use all at their disposal. In a pure H2H fight I'd give Snake a clear majority no doubt. But in an all out fight where Cranston can go to town no.
Originally posted by Martian_mind
I could have missed a few feats, but apart from his showing against Grendel, Dynamite Shadow really isn't that impressive, IIRC. Especially if you want to claim that he wins "without breaking a sweat".
Theres ore but seriosuly taking out Kato and Hornet in a one shot screams impressive.
And F#&& off with that Grendal overated sh!t. The prefix you were looking for was UNDER not over. Gave the goddam Bat a run for his money
Originally posted by beatboksI have doubts about the shadows enabling him to get the jump on snake eyes. Snake has managed to detect creatures and characters that even stormshadow and jinx have been unable to detect. Even some of the greatest assassins have been called children in comparison to him. Also, how is the shadow going to hide? Unless otherwise specified, they're fighting in an open, flat space.
Lamont has faced and defeated many bullet timers and has plenty of bullet timing feats himself. In one Dynamite issue he was the target of a room full of gunman firing at him and none could land a shot.Not that thats why I'm even saying he wins. His stealth is a level or two abode almost any other fictional character I can think of. He's almost always on someone before they even know he's there.
Yes Snake eyes has the advantage in pure h2h skill (though I wouldnt say by a massive margin), but that isnt all Cranston brings to the table. There's also his marksmanship to consider that frankly is up there close behind Deadshot and Bullseye. His stealth that is good enough the DC version could shadow (pun intended) the great Batman for a week or two unseen (and shoot the knife out of a Batman attackers hand from a range Bats couldnt put an exact point to - WITH a hand gun)
The op didnt say pure H2H and didnt say they coukd t use all at their disposal. In a pure H2H fight I'd give Snake a clear majority no doubt. But in an all out fight where Cranston can go to town no.
Originally posted by beatboks
Theres ore but seriosuly taking out Kato and Hornet in a one shot screams impressive.And F#&& off with that Grendal overated sh!t. The prefix you were looking for was UNDER not over. Gave the goddam Bat a run for his money
Apart from Batman and the bullet swat, what has Grendel done? Shadow stomped him (Grendel literally didn't land an honest shot in their first exchange, they were all cheap shots). His best showing in his own comic is taking down those 4 MA masters. Otherwise, all he's done is torment mooks. Shit, Shadow even comments on how he lacks actual training.
Grendel is a chump. Deal with it.
Originally posted by Martian_mindHopefully you are just being facetious, because that is most certainly NOT his only bullet-timing feat, lol.
That is literally Grendel's only bullet time feat. It is, in fact, his best feat.The dude is incredibly overrated.
Calling Grendel overrated is hysterical. Very few people around here even know who the guys is -- let alone know enough about him to exaggerate what he's done on panel. 😂
Originally posted by Martian_mindso fighting an agless manwolf that uses magic isn't something that a top tier street does? Managing to evade and outsmart batman twice isn't something you'd expect from a top tier street? Evenly fighting the shadow isn't something that a top tier street does?
The people who do know about Grendel wank him to no end, however. They'll try and pass him off as a top-tier street, which simply isn't the case.
Originally posted by deathslash
so fighting an agless manwolf that uses magic isn't something that a top tier street does? Managing to evade and outsmart batman twice isn't something you'd expect from a top tier street? Evenly fighting the shadow isn't something that a top tier street does?
A top-tier street wouldn't get killed by said wolf, especially if the wolf was a featless wonder. As to the Shadow, he and Grendel never "fought evenly". Grendel was totally outclassed. In their first fight, Grendel only landed cheap shots, and Shadow even remarks about Grendel's lack of actual skill. In their second fight, Grendel flees the moment he's injured, an injury that most top streets would simply fight their way through.
Look, I love the Hunter Rose stories. However, he suffers from the same condition as Dr Manhatten, in that he exists in a world where he is mostly unchallenged. As such, he is heavily lacking in the context and feats necessary to be considered top-tier. The Shadow showing further cements this, as Shadow was portrayed as his obvious superior in h2h.
Originally posted by Martian_mindthat "featless wonder" had seen years of combat and was still a physically enhance werewolf shaman. Did it occur to you that instead of that being a low showing for Grendel, that it was just a high showing for Argent?
A top-tier street wouldn't get killed by said wolf, especially if the wolf was a featless wonder. As to the Shadow, he and Grendel never "fought evenly". Grendel was totally outclassed. In their first fight, Grendel only landed cheap shots, and Shadow even remarks about Grendel's lack of actual skill. In their second fight, Grendel flees the moment he's injured, an injury that most top streets would simply fight their way through.Look, I love the Hunter Rose stories. However, he suffers from the same condition as Dr Manhatten, in that he exists in a world where he is mostly unchallenged. As such, he is heavily lacking in the context and feats necessary to be considered top-tier. The Shadow showing further cements this, as Shadow was portrayed as his obvious superior in h2h.
🤨 what? In their first fight, Grendel casually dodged the Shadow's gunfire and then charged him. Shadow knocked him away and then used a smoke pellet to sneak attack Grendel (which is funny because sneak attacking someone is a form of cheapshot) and used his hypnotic ring. Grendel then headbutted the shadow and the shadow attacked him while he was talking (another cheapshot) and Grendel hit him and ran. So let's review, shadow cheapshots Grendel twice and Grendel cheapshots the shadow twice. Also, at no point in time did the Shadow ever allude to Grendel not being skilled. Seriously, show me where he said that.
Originally posted by deathslash
that "featless wonder" had seen years of combat and was still a physically enhance werewolf shaman. Did it occur to you that instead of that being a low showing for Grendel, that it was just a high showing for Argent?🤨 what? In their first fight, Grendel casually dodged the Shadow's gunfire and then charged him. Shadow knocked him away and then used a smoke pellet to sneak attack Grendel (which is funny because sneak attacking someone is a form of cheapshot) and used his hypnotic ring. Grendel then headbutted the shadow and the shadow attacked him while he was talking (another cheapshot) and Grendel hit him and ran. So let's review, shadow cheapshots Grendel twice and Grendel cheapshots the shadow twice. Also, at no point in time did the Shadow ever allude to Grendel not being skilled. Seriously, show me where he said that.
Dodging gunfire means nothing to a street-leveller, so that's a moot point. As to the rest, Shadow easily blocked Grendel's blow, and booted his arse away. All he did through the smoke was seize Grendel's blade, so that's hardly a cheap shot. I'll grant you, he took Grendel by surprise with the nerve strikes, but Grendel's reaction is rather damning. He fled, and fully concedes that the Shadow bested him. So that's two occasions of Grendel bitching out, in circumstances that a real top-street would power through.
As for Argent, all the description and hyperbole means nothing, if he doesn't have the feats to back it up. Now, what actual, concrete feats does Argent have, apart from killing mooks and Grendel?
As for the lack of genuine skill, the comment comes a few pages later in the same issue as their first fight. Shadow remarks that it's as though Grendel has no formal training, as he has a completely chaotic, innate style. It's meant as a compliment, yet it puts Grendel at a disadvantage to the top-tiers, who, as the Shadow displayed, have access to nerve-strikes and the like.
Originally posted by Martian_mindYou're going out of your way to lowball Grendel for literally no reason at all -- you're as bad as those 'Grendel-wankers' you were just talking shit about. srsly
As for the lack of genuine skill, the comment comes a few pages later in the same issue as their first fight. Shadow remarks that it's as though Grendel has no formal training, as he has a completely chaotic, innate style. It's meant as a compliment, yet it puts Grendel at a disadvantage to the top-tiers, who, as the Shadow displayed, have access to nerve-strikes and the like.
As for Shadow's statement: you're taking it HUGELY out of context. Not only does his statement in that scene reconfirm Grendel's ability to bullet-time --even against a top-tier marksman like Lamont-- but it confirms that Grendel simply did not fight with any formalized technique that Lamont was familiar with:
http://i.imgur.com/KsUlwuD.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Ufu4XjZ.jpg
If anything, it puts those with formal training at a disadvantage against Grendel, as it is hard/impossible to gauge his technique and whatnot. That is probably part of the reason why Grendel has effortlessly slaughtered those with formalized training several times in the past... He was more than a match for Batman, for example.
As for the nerve strikes: Kato was KTFO for a few pages by ONE of them, and The Shadow wasn't even trying to harm him. Grendel endured THREE of them in rapid succession, and The Shadow was actually fighting for his life when he delivered them. Moreover, Grendel was still able to successfully attack Lamont immediately afterward and flee. Again, that is just a testament to how amazing he is -- it is certainly NOT a poor showing.
Originally posted by Martian_mindsaying that Grendel dodging the Shadow's gunfire is moot is akin to saying that batman dodging deadshot's bullets isn't impressive. Yes, Grendel got pistol whipped and kicked in the chest and was still fighting with no problem. Meanwhile, when the shadow took a headbut from him, he was in serious pain (enough pain for grendel to have a small monolog). Also, how's grendel's reaction damming? He could barely move, didn't have his weapon, and still managed to hit the shadow hard enough to escape.
Dodging gunfire means nothing to a street-leveller, so that's a moot point. As to the rest, Shadow easily blocked Grendel's blow, and booted his arse away. All he did through the smoke was seize Grendel's blade, so that's hardly a cheap shot. I'll grant you, he took Grendel by surprise with the nerve strikes, but Grendel's reaction is rather damning. He fled, and fully concedes that the Shadow bested him. So that's two occasions of Grendel bitching out, in circumstances that a real top-street would power through.As for Argent, all the description and hyperbole means nothing, if he doesn't have the feats to back it up. Now, what actual, concrete feats does Argent have, apart from killing mooks and Grendel?
Also, he didn't just up and run in their second fight. He casually disarmed the Shadow and then put up a good fight against a full health Shadow. Hell, he even managed to land a hit and only ran after he couldn't use one of his arms and started getting shot at again. The funny thing is that the Shadow himself noted that Grendel couldn't beat him with that bullet wound and he still held his own.
You realize that argent was tough enough to survive a multi story fall, could and did rip off people's arms and crush their skulls, and fought the second Grendel (the one that slays vampires) to a double kill after casually healing himself of a broken (or was it severed?) spine?
Originally posted by deathslashHis spine was completely severed:
You realize that argent was tough enough to survive a multi story fall, could and did rip off people's arms and crush their skulls, and fought the second Grendel (the one that slays vampires) to a double kill after casually healing himself of a broken (or was it severed?) spine?
Originally posted by Don DraperGrendel is VERY skilled with melee weaponry -- he *uses* a melee weapon as standard equipment, after all(ie. 'The Grendel Fork'.)
I'm totally convinced of grandels MA skills, but is it just h2h or is he also skilled with melee weapons?
Even as a teenager, Grendel/Hunter was already the best fencer in the world by a HUGE margin -- literally toyed with the next best before allowing him to win after getting bored:
http://i.imgur.com/98pvIyc.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/JLaVZUU.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/PyB09VP.jpg
And obviously his skills just continued to massively improve from there. That's why he could so casually slaughter a room-full of Korean mobsters, who were extraordinarily skilled in their own right:
http://i.imgur.com/7oWnq2U.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/AVTsrPT.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/3eMkntQ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/95WANGW.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/BZ9EVz9.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Xfkph1J.jpg
*He also easily avoided gunfire as well.
But I'd say the trait that really sets Grendel apart from others is his speed. I have already posted bullet-timing feats, but here are a few others...
Avoids close-range handgun fire:
http://i.imgur.com/mMIH2Sn.jpg
Avoids close-range fire from multiple fully automatic weapons:
http://i.imgur.com/NefjNjT.jpg
*There are bullet-timing feats more if anyone would like to see them.
His speed was also such that even Batman was shocked by it:
http://i.imgur.com/rMdAHcM.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/nFNbWJM.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Lm3BGoJ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ZL3PH7T.jpg
*As you can see, he was more than a match for Bruce during their battle.
Grendel was also stealthy enough to take Bruce by surprise, which is astounding in its own right:
http://i.imgur.com/Yo7c1E5.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Q92MxLE.jpg
And it goes without saying that his ridiculous physical speed crosses-over into his weaponry as well:
Grendel has a LOT more feats/accolades under his belt, but hopefully what I've posted is enough for you to get a rough idea of his abilities. 👆
I'm really not attempting to lowball Grendel here. I'm just striking back against these ridiculous notions about his skill, which, as I've said, are easily traced back to the context of his appearances. Grendel seems so fearsome because he exists in a relatively mundane world. How many times have we seen mooks talking about a member of the bat family as though they were something entirely beyond human? Grendel is seen almost primarily from the perspective of 'normals'. Therefore, while has been treated to a host of hyperbole, which deceives many of his fans, he still lacks the feats to be a true top-tier.
Take for example the Korean gangsters. Galan referred to them as 'extraordinarily skilled'. What does that mean, exactly? What have they done to merit that label? Where would they stack up against, say, Dr Mid-nite? Because I'd bet he had them beat on feats.
The most damning evidence is in the crossover fights. You say that Grendel was 'more than a match' for Batman. No, he obviously wasn't. That statement inherently implies superiority, yet the fight ends with Grendel flat on his face, until Batman picks him up. He wasn't superior, he lost the exchange. He also lost to the Shadow, on two separate occasions.
Now, if a character with relatively few feats, tries his luck against two actually top-tiers, and finds himself losing every encounter, how can that character be considered a true top-tier himself?
Again, I'm not saying that Grendel is incapable. He's good, very good. He's just not quite as good as people try to declare.
