Snake Eyes Vs The Shadow

Originally posted by Martian_mind
Take for example the Korean gangsters. Galan referred to them as 'extraordinarily skilled'. What does that mean, exactly? What have they done to merit that label? Where would they stack up against, say, Dr Mid-nite? Because I'd bet he had them beat on feats.

Why on earth would I be comparing them to characters from an entirely different company? 😕

Originally posted by Martian_mind
The most damning evidence is in the crossover fights. You say that Grendel was 'more than a match' for Batman. No, he obviously wasn't. That statement inherently implies superiority, yet the fight ends with Grendel flat on his face, until Batman picks him up. He wasn't superior, he lost the exchange. He also lost to the Shadow, on two separate occasions.

They stalemated for almost the entire fight, until Bruce narrowly gained the upperhand in the final few panels -- and it's not like Grendel was KO'd or got the shit beat out of him; he was just subdued for that moment. Fact is: there are scarce few street-levelers who are capable of giving Bruce such a legitimately good fight... So in *that* sense, Grendel was more than a match for him(which is what I was saying.)

Originally posted by Martian_mind
Again, I'm not saying that Grendel is incapable. He's good, very good. He's just not quite as good as people try to declare.

I don't know how other people debate Grendel, but I have posted evidence to support every single claim I have made about him. So I would hope you aren't trying to blanket me amongst the ill-informed 'Grendel-wankers'. 😉

You were actually the genesis of my belief in Grendel's over-exaggeration, TBH, as I remembered this quote from your Grendel lineage thread.

Originally posted by Galan007
Hunter Rose=Batman-level. Arguably a bit above.
Christine/Brian=Slightly below that.
Eppy=Batman-level. Arguably a bit above.
Grendel Prime=Very hard to precisely place, as we never saw an upper limit. Physically he could lift 18 wheelers and toss them around, and he schooled Batman with a mixture of fighting skill/strength. He was a cyborg that could recharge via solar or electrical absorption... And he carried a lightsaber-esque weapon to boot.

You claimed he's either equal to Batman, or arguably above. As has been seen in this thread, and as you have admitted, he is definitely not equal, and certainly not above. So I maintain, on the occasions he appears, Grendel is overrated on these forums.

Originally posted by Martian_mind
You were actually the genesis of my belief in Grendel's over-exaggeration, TBH, as I remembered this quote from your Grendel lineage thread.

You claimed he's either equal to Batman, or arguably above. As has been seen in this thread, and as you have admitted, he is definitely not equal, and certainly not above. So I maintain, on the occasions he appears, Grendel is overrated on these forums.

Anyway, is Grendel on the same general level at Bruce? Yes. Is he superior to Bruce on average? No, but he can give him an incredibly close fight.

Originally posted by Galan007
Seriously? You're mentioning a post I made 5 years ago --before I had even read the Batman/Grendel crossover-- like it still reflects my current opinion(which I have made overtly clear in this thread.) Jesus, I hate to call someone ridiculous, but you're clearly just digging at this point. I mean, in this very thread you were the one who said that Grendel is 'an overrated chump' -- and soon switched goalposts to him actually being a really good fighter(after you saw the scans/evidence I posted.) But yeah, keep dodging that. 👆

Anyway, is Grendel on the same general level at Bruce? Yes. Is he superior to Bruce on average? No, but he can give him an incredibly close fight.

I stated that people overrate Grendel, and showed an example of you doing that very thing, especially if this was prior to reading his encounter with Batman. How you could believe he was ever 'arguably above' based solely on his own series, is completely beyond me.

And you haven't changed my opinion, in any way. Grendel is a good fighter, very good. In the context of this debate, which deals with his ranking in regards to top-tier fighters, Grendel is, and will always be, a chump. He has lost every encounter, including one that was tailored to his skill-set (Shadow beat him blade-to-blade. Considering that is Grendel's specialty, it makes his defeat all the more embarrassing). As to the Batman fight, you are really exaggerating Grendel's achievements. Nightsing, Red Hood, Catman etc, have all given Batman FAR better fights. The Grendel-Bat exchange could not have lasted longer than a minute, scales against the time it took that child to overbalance and fall. I can think of scarce-few High-streets that would find themselves overwhelmed so swiftly.

Originally posted by Martian_mind
I stated that people overrate Grendel, and showed an example of you doing that very thing, especially if this was prior to reading his encounter with Batman. How you could believe he was ever 'arguably above' based solely on his own series, is completely beyond me.

When I first dove into Grendel hardcore, I read ALL of the primary Dark Horse issues pertaining to the Grendel Lineage. I did not read the crossovers initially, because I figured they were non-canon and therefore irrelevant to the characters(as most crossovers are.) It was only later(after I made the thread you cited) that I learned those crossovers were in fact regarded as canon; at which point I read them. Simple.

Perhaps you should ease off with the e-arrogance, and get all of the facts before you spew nonsense..? I mean, judging by some of the things you've said in this very thread, it is overtly clear that you aren't at all familiar with Grendel... But other than bash you for your clear lack of knowledge on a character that you were/are lowballing, I opted to educate you instead.

🙂

Originally posted by Martian_mind
And you haven't changed my opinion, in any way. Grendel is a good fighter, very good. In the context of this debate, which deals with his ranking in regards to top-tier fighters, Grendel is, and will always be, a chump. He has lost every encounter, including one that was tailored to his skill-set (Shadow beat him blade-to-blade. Considering that is Grendel's specialty, it makes his defeat all the more embarrassing). As to the Batman fight, you are really exaggerating Grendel's achievements. Nightsing, Red Hood, Catman etc, have all given Batman FAR better fights. The Grendel-Bat exchange could not have lasted longer than a minute, scales against the time it took that child to overbalance and fall. I can think of scarce-few High-streets that would find themselves overwhelmed so swiftly.

As I said earlier: you are just as bad(if not moreso) than the 'Grendel-wankers' you've so ardently talked shit about. At least *they* base their arguments on something of substance. You, on the other hand, clearly have some kind of hidden agenda against the character, and are just going on a hate-fueled rate at this point. I mean seriously, every time I pin you in a corner, you defer to the "Grendel is a chump and his feats are weaksauce" argument. 😂

All of my statements/opinions, however, are completely fact based, and have been supported with on-panel evidence. 🙂

When did I attack your knowledge, exactly? I asked how you could come to the conclusion that Grendel was 'arguably above' Batman, based on the feats present in his solo series. You have ignored this question in favour of a needlessly aggressive, straw man-based rant.

How about you address it now. Discounting crossovers, what feats does Grendel have that put him 'arguably above'? If that was your opinion prior to the crossover, then there must be some doozies, as it was the actual crossover that changed your opinion. Or maybe, just maybe, you were overrating Grendel, which is what started this debate in the first place.

Originally posted by Martian_mind
When did I attack your knowledge, exactly? I asked how you could come to the conclusion that Grendel was 'arguably above' Batman, based on the feats present in his solo series. You have ignored this question in favour of a needlessly aggressive, straw man-based rant.

How about you address it now. Discounting crossovers, what feats does Grendel have that put him 'arguably above'? If that was your opinion prior to the crossover, then there must be some doozies, as it was the actual crossover that changed your opinion. Or maybe, just maybe, you were overrating Grendel, which is what started this debate in the first place.

Hell, the fact that you are STILL clinging to a 5 year old post, when I have made my opinion adundently clear in this thread, is laughable... And shows me that you literally have nothing at all to support your arrogant banter. I mean, you clearly know very little about Grendel, given some of your previous statements in this thread, yet you incessantly try to lowball him in lieu of your glaring ignorance of the character. It is one of the more ridiculous and desperate attempts to downplay a character that I have ever seen here. It's actually quite funny at this point, tbh.

OR is it possible that maybe...just maybe...it is YOU who has the blinders on? Nah, I'm sure THAT can't possibly be the case, right? 🙄

{edit}
At any rate, I am done feeding into this circular/fallacious BS. You can have the last word(you clearly want it anyway)... If anyone else would like to *intelligibly* discuss Grendel or The Shadow, however, I would be more than happy to. 👆

I think I'll take that last word, considering yours were quite feeble. At the very least, I'll summarise yours, for any outsider-readers lacking the inclination to decipher your wall-of-text.

Basically, rather than answer a very simple question, you make a sad attempt to deflect, and again resort to needless agression. You have posted feats, yes, yet not a damn thing that supports your stance of Grendel being a legitimate peer to Batman. You can try and claim you've already done it, yet anyone who sees those scans will dismiss them as evidence to that fact, regardless of how hard you try and play them up. That you are now actively leaving the discussion, simply because you are incapable of supporting your stance, or handling an interpretation that doesn't fit your pre-conceived idea of a character you have, and still are, overrating, is both a hilarious and immature approach, though one becoming of your conduct throughout the rest of this debate.

To bring this all full circle, I say once again that Grendel is overrated, and no match for the top-tiers of the street-tier. If anyone has ANY evidence to suggest otherwise, please bring it forward.

👆Galan007 is right. grendel is definitely a toptier street leveler but something ive noticed on this site is that some people are just going to low ball characters no matter how much proofs is stacked against them.

but ya- shadow beating grendel is insane feat in itself and definitely puts him on batman's level and grendel just under that. i think shadow can win here.

Originally posted by Martian_mind
That is literally Grendel's only bullet time feat. It is, in fact, his best feat.

The dude is incredibly overrated.

You claimed back on page 2 that Grendal had onlynyhe one bullet timing feat.
Galan has posted about 7 others IIRC.

Is it any wonder he has left the discussiin with you when you are this dismissive of proof countering your claims.

You've also made the assertion that standard street levelers bullet time. This simply isnt the case, the only characters that legitimately bullet time are too tier. There are many examples of lower tier streets AIM dodging, but that isn't the same thing as bullet timing.

FTR Galan also pretty openly said he ISN'T leaving the discusion, just that he's exiting from the circular debate with you when you've clearly shown your dismissive of what he has offered.

Yeah, evidently I am "playing up the evidence" by describing EXACTLY what is happening in the scans, lol.

There is just no use discussing Grendel with MM any further. Doesn't matter what we say or post, he will just continue to ignore the evidence presented, call Grendel an overrated chump, accuse us of wanking him, and lowball the shit out of him. Wash/rinse/repeat.

But yeah, I would very much like to discuss Grendel or The Shadow with a more unbiased party, who doesn't have some sort of vendetta against the character(s). They are some of the most fun/interesting street-levelers out there, imo, and they honestly need more exposure among the forum. 👆

Originally posted by Galan007

But yeah, I would very much like to discuss Grendel or The Shadow with a more unbiased party, who doesn't have some sort of vendetta against the character(s). They are some of the most fun/interesting street-levelers out there, imo, and they honestly need more exposure among the forum. 👆

Definitely agree with the underlined
the shadow is one of my favourite street level characters, I'm not really into street level as much but he certainly qualifies as being a top fav of mine.
as a Marksman I would rank him easily top 5 with Bullseye Deadshot and ultimate Hawkeye above him (can't think of anyone else that would).

H2h more like top 30-40ish
Stealth top 10
Strategy top 20-30
Reflex top 15-20

As an all round street character adding in his mind f#%ery powers easily too 15-20 when you tie the package together.

Originally posted by beatboks
Definitely agree with the underlined
the shadow is one of my favourite street level characters, I'm not really into street level as much but he certainly qualifies as being a top fav of mine.
as a Marksman I would rank him easily top 5 with Bullseye Deadshot and ultimate Hawkeye above him (can't think of anyone else that would).

H2h more like top 30-40ish
Stealth top 10
Strategy top 20-30
Reflex top 15-20

As an all round street character adding in his mind f#%ery powers easily too 15-20 when you tie the package together.

His recent dynamite series was excellent. Justice INC was an interesting venture, as it also gave us a chance to see where Doc Savage fits in the rankings as well. He and Shadow were definitely portrayed as peers, as far as H2H goes.

Originally posted by beatboks
Definitely agree with the underlined
the shadow is one of my favourite street level characters, I'm not really into street level as much but he certainly qualifies as being a top fav of mine.
as a Marksman I would rank him easily top 5 with Bullseye Deadshot and ultimate Hawkeye above him (can't think of anyone else that would).

H2h more like top 30-40ish
Stealth top 10
Strategy top 20-30
Reflex top 15-20

As an all round street character adding in his mind f#%ery powers easily too 15-20 when you tie the package together.

When all of Lamont's gadgetry and whatnot is coupled with his h2h skills(ie. the 'complete package' you spoke of), he is formidable enough to give any street-leveler a run for their money, imo. His more recent showings in Dynamite Comics have really solidified that for me. Feats like dropping Kato with one casual strike, for example... Just insane, lol. It is obvious that Lamont is deeply respected by ALL writers -- no matter the company. Throughout the entire history of comic books, a scarce few characters can make such a boast.

😉

^^^Batman's such a fanboy.

I love when writers point that out:

Originally posted by Galan007
I agree with everything you said for the most part. 👆

When all of Lamont's gadgetry and whatnot is coupled with his h2h skills(ie. the 'complete package' you spoke of), he is formidable enough to give any street-leveler a run for their money, imo. His more recent showings in Dynamite Comics have really solidified that for me. Feats like dropping Kato with one casual strike, for example... Just insane, lol. It is obvious that Lamont is deeply respected by ALL writers -- no matter the company. Throughout the entire history of comic books, a scarce few characters can make such a boast.

😉

I loved those SA Batman cross overs.
If I'm not mistaken that one was from the story where Shadow followed Bruce for the wholenissue and saved him twice with his marksmanship. Only the second time was Bruce even certain thatbhe had seen a form move.

Yep. 👆