Flashes vs High Herald tier

Originally posted by golem370
But in a fight you have to take at least two things in to count one the character's personality and two if somebody puts characters from one company against one from another then they're both handicapped by basic knowledge of who they are fighting.

That's the point I am making Golem. That for the Flash his 'averages' are really non-existent. He is either thinking in picoseconds, can think of millions of scenarios in aninstant like Midnighter on crack, short circuiting the MM's ability to phase, absorbing global kinetic energy, etc. Or he is fighting Captain Boomerang and a talking gorilla and having a hard time.

On your first point - he is all over the place. On your second - even if you had basic knowledge (say the Flash has the speed to evacuate a city of 500,000 in 0.0001 of a microsecond while a nuclear bomb explodes, in what is the fastest speed feat outside Gladiator, Silver Surfer and PC Superman), what good with that knowledge do you? If you had prep yes. Without prep ...all the knowledge will do is make you understand that the moment the fight starts it ends.

Flash is a bad debate character. Either three things happen - the fight starts and immediately ends with a Flash win, or you match the Flash with a character that is above his tier that will defeat the Flash (in many cases defeat the Flash easily) or third you put so many stipulations that the fight becomes unfair. But in a proper forum fight, he's a bad character for debate.

What tier would you put Flash on average?

Originally posted by Cogito
As funny as that would be, he just copied the tiers list.

To be fair, Carter is that bad.

Eh, there is no way speedsters win this.

Originally posted by golem370
What tier would you put Flash on average?

I'd put him in the exact same tier he is in. He does not deserve to be in a higher tier.

I too will support Team High Herald to win this.

Originally posted by cdtm
Agreed, but it's odd seeing a near 100% unanimous agreement.

Pitting Barry or Wally again, say, Superman alone usually gets an argument.

Yeah, but Eobard is here.

Imagine if Pa and Ma Kent...never were. No Lois, Jimmy, Perry, etc.

Or he just bashes Baby Supes with a lump of K-nite?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Yeah, but Eobard is here.

Imagine if Pa and Ma Kent...never were. No Lois, Jimmy, Perry, etc.

Or he just bashes Baby Supes with a lump of K-nite?

Time Trapper tried something along those lines, and failed. Multiple times(er no pun intended).

Originally posted by cdtm
Agreed, but it's odd seeing a near 100% unanimous agreement.

Pitting Barry or Wally again, say, Superman alone usually gets an argument.

If anyone wants to know where I copied the High Herald group from, please look here.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t577922.html

Quick copy and paste which is the reason you do not see Hulk in it. If it makes you feel better, you can take the time and add him.

Originally posted by Delta1938
Time Trapper tried something along those lines, and failed. Multiple times(er no pun intended).

But we also saw how a Flash affected him.. Flashpoint. And that was just Barry being an idiot, lol.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But we also saw how a Flash affected him.. Flashpoint. And that was just Barry being an idiot, lol.

I dunno what's going on with REBIRTH, if it's changed anything. Wasn't it shown in CONVERGENCE that the universes hadn't changed?

Originally posted by Delta1938
I dunno what's going on with REBIRTH, if it's changed anything. Wasn't it shown in CONVERGENCE that the universes hadn't changed?

I meant, the Flashpoint Superman was this:

And that was because Superman's history had been altered. The Kents never found him, etc. And this was a direct result of Barry haphazardly messing around with time.

Whereas Thawne is MUCH more surgical and precise.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I meant, the Flashpoint Superman was this:

And that was because Superman's history had been altered. The Kents never found him, etc. And this was a direct result of Barry haphazardly messing around with time.

Whereas Thawne is MUCH more surgical and precise.

But wouldn't CONVERGENCE put a wrench in that? After all, among other things, Pre-FLASHPOINT Superman fought his FLASHPOINT counterpart during that.

Time Trapper would also be a lot more precise, and powerful. He had tried several times stuff like that, and it always failed. I'll have to find the scans, I'll get them when I can.

Originally posted by Delta1938
But wouldn't CONVERGENCE put a wrench in that? After all, among other things, Pre-FLASHPOINT Superman fought his FLASHPOINT counterpart during that.

Time Trapper would also be a lot more precise, and powerful. He had tried several times stuff like that, and it always failed. I'll have to find the scans, I'll get them when I can.

Pre could fight Post (and Flashpoint), I guess because of time travel shenanigans.

It doesn't mean that Flashpoint never happened, or more importantly, that Superman's history cannot be altered.

Whilst Time Trapper may have failed, my point is that a Flash (one of the ones in this fight actually) managed to alter his timeline. And he now has help from someone who can do it much more precisely. Carver has made a thread where only one side has PIS/CIS/Whatever off, and has given that team FULL expertise and power.

The only unknown here, tbh, is Qztr.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Pre could fight Post (and Flashpoint), I guess because of time travel shenanigans.

It doesn't mean that Flashpoint never happened, or more importantly, that Superman's history cannot be altered.

Whilst Time Trapper may have failed, my point is that a Flash (one of the ones in this fight actually) managed to alter his timeline. And he now has help from someone who can do it much more precisely. Carver has made a thread where only one side has PIS/CIS/Whatever off, and has given that team FULL expertise and power.

The only unknown here, tbh, is Qztr.

From what I remember, CONVERGENCE made it so they were parallel universes, that both existed. Which would mean that it wasn't actually altered, FLASHPOINT was just a different universe. REBIRTH could be contradicting this, though. If it hasn't, and I'm remembering right on CONVERGENCE, you're arguing they'll do something Time Trapper couldn't pull off. 😖hifty: Which he couldn't pull off before FLASHPOINT, making your argument PIS. 😄

So forgetting Reverse Flash or time travel (And isn't that a self bfr?)

Could they beat this team conventionally?

So would you take 30% of the herald tier out as well, starting with the most powerful?

And its not self BFR. That only occurs if he cannot return to the battlefield under his own power within a reasonable amount of time....which, as its Zoom, is laughable.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So would you take 30% of the herald tier out as well, starting with the most powerful?

And its not self BFR. That only occurs if he cannot return to the battlefield under his own power within a reasonable amount of time....which, as its Zoom, is laughable.

I hate to be "that guy" (Rules stickler), but since I'm being called out:

Leaving the field
Combatants who leave the field of combat on purpose forfeit the match. If they are removed from the arena against their will (being punched, thrown, teleported, etc.) and can make it back under their own power in a reasonable amount of time, then they are still in the fight. Obviously, if a combatant leaves the field and cannot return under their own power, then they have lost.

Full disclosure, I wasn't even sure KMC had this rule when I brought it up, but it's usually standard most places.

So there. 😛

Yah. So he can make it back!

I put him the same category as Nughtcrawler, who BMAFs into another dimension and comes back.