The ACTUAL argument

Started by darthbane775 pages

The ACTUAL argument

The thread I just posted a few hours ago was actually a troll thread, it was purposely poorly put together, just to see if anybody would take the bait, the results were not disappointing. This is the actual argument I have. It's much more well put together and written in my opinion, as well as the opinions of those who read it where I posted it the first time. I'm sharing this one as evidence that I can actually make a good argument and that I'm not actually a complete idiot, as some of you probably think.

I'll start by looking at their accolades, specifically those that state them as being the most powerful Sith Lord in history. Both of them have these accolades, and both of them have several of these accolades at that. The difference is that Viiate's are newer. A quote by Leland Chee would suggest that all newer content overwrites older sources and another one from him states that any source can be challenged if there is a notable contradiction in either another source, whether it be accolades or feats.

Now I'll look at their actual power. Sidious is stated as being an "event horizon" and a "black hole" in the Force, where-as Vitiate is stated as being a "god-like avatar of the Dark SIde" Vitiate is also powerful enough that he is actually a Sith entity, meaning he doesn't need to have a physical form to retain most of his power. Darth Marr was actually afraid of how powerful Vitiate could become without a corporeal vessel. In "Rise of the Emperor", Vitiate was able consume the population of Ziost with no rituals, just a full powered drain. While it's true that Sidious was able to hide himself from right under the nose of the Jedi, which is incredibly impressive, it's also known that several other, far less powerful Sith, were able to do so as well; such as Darth Zannah and (more impressively) Baral Ovair, who hid his presence as a Sith agent for decades. Vitiate himself hid from the Jedi for over a millenium, and the Jedi never got more than inkling of a though that something was wrong. Suggesting Vitiate's power to conceal himself is much greater than Sidious' own.

We can also look at their examples of planetary drain. Sidious was able to drain the population of Byss slowly to retain his power, but it required that he focused on doing so for all that time, implying that it wasn't easy for him to do. Vitiate's example of planetary drain, draining Ziost, was immediate, and not only killed and absorbed all sentient beings on the planet, it also left Ziost a barren wasteland. Another comparison of their actual power is this, Sidious is the greatest example of Banite scaling done right. He has more power behind him than any of the previous Banite Sith Lords, and considerably so at that. Hence his accolades of being an event horizon and a black hole and what have you. Vitiate, however, contains, at BASE (considering him post Nathema ritual as base) has the combined power of 8000 Sith Lords from Nathema, keep in mind that these were Sith alive during the golden age of the Sith, meaning they would have been powerful. He was so powerful that his mere presence on Dromund Kaas turned it into a stormy and dark planet, and he turned the planet into a Nexus of Dark Side energy by simply being there and performing other rituals. Let's also not forget that Luke Skywalker compared Sidious to Exar Kun, suggesting that even Exar Kun (who is canonically inferior to Vitiate) may be on par with at least ROTS Sidious.

So now, we know that lesser Sith have been capable of doing things that Sidious has done, on the exact same scale. And we know that Vitiate was able to do these things on a larger scale. We also know that Vitiate is an entity, which is a level of power that Sidious has never reached, or at least is never directly stated as having reached.

Now we look at their most impressive feats. Let's go right to the one everybody is going to bring up, Force Storms. Many Sidious advocates will use this argument to say that Sidious is more powerful than any other Sith Lord; I disagree. We know from Dark Empire that Sidious' Dark Side Acolytes, when they use their strength together, are capable of summoning these storms, and they're significantly weaker than Sidious is. We also know that Jedi Master Thon is credited with the ability to use these storms as well. This puts things into perspective, because now we know that Sidious isn't the only person that can use Force Storms, which makes Sidious' feat considerably less impressive now. Sidious is also stated as being believed to have learned all Dark Side powers in existence, with the ability to formulate new ones at will, this is also highly contestable. As the quote never actually direct says that "Sidious learned all power, the end" it says that he is BELIEVED to have done so, meaning that Sidious' mastery of every ability is really nothing more than a rumor and conjecture. Just as well, his supposed ability to create new powers on a whim is ludicrous s well, as Sidious never once demonstrates a power of his own creation like that. On the flip side of that, Vitiate is directly stated a having delved into the deepest and darkest aspects of the Force in his pursuit for immortality and power, mastering every ability he came across.

Vitiate, as a boy, was able to mentally dominate Lord Dramath and kill him at the age of 10, and at the age of 13 Vitiate had become powerful enough to gain the notice of Marka Ragnos, the most powerful Dark Lord to live up until that point in time. Sidious was certainly powerful as a child, but to easily dominate and kill a fully trained Sith Lord at age 10 is something we never seen from young Palpatine. We should also consider that Sidious, as the Emperor, was nearly killed on Korriban by the spirits of long dead Sith; Vitiate was the most powerful ancient Sith. If Sidious was incapable of dealing with the weakened spirits of unnamed Sith Lords, then why should he be able to defeat Vitiate, who is factually far more powerful than any of those ancient Sith? Let's also not forget that Vitiate easily defeated not one, but two of his Dark Councils that plotted against him. Destroying them, supposedly with ease.

Now let's look at them as spirits. This is honestly where Vitiate trumps Sidious without question. Vitiate is stated as being an entity, which as I said earlier, means he doesn't need to have a physical body to retain a large portion of his power. This is made quite evident by his draining of Ziost as a spirit, as well as his many feats in KOTFE and KOTET as a spirit, including ragdolling the Outlander, and incinerating Skytroopers with a wave of Dark Side energy, or using his weakened power to easily dispatch his son Arcann. The point being, Vitiate/Valkorion is still IMMENSELY powerful as a spirit. Sidious, on the other hand, is useless as a spirit. He can't do anything combative as a spirit aside from essence transfer. So if the two encountered each other as spirits, Vitiate/Valkorion would dominate him.

No we get to examine their lightning. Sidious has some of the most impressive lightning in the mythos, capable of turning stormtroopers to ash, assist in the overpowering of Vader's lightning resistant suit, and even overpower Yoda, one of the most powerful Jedi in the mythos. Sidious can even bend his lightning, curving it towards his intended target, which is a feat no other Sith Lord has achieved. Sidious control of lightning is unmatched, but what of its actual power? I'm of the mind that Sidious' lightning may not actually be the most powerful display of lightning we've ever seen from a Sith Lord, despite accolades to the contrary.

So let's look at his lightning, and then we'll examine Vitiate/Valkorion's. Sidious was able to turn Stormtroopers into ash with casual ease, but this is honestly made slightly less impressive by the fact that the Starkiller clone was also capable of such a thing, and Starkiller not only completely destroyed the Stormtroopers, but there was nothing left of them in the end, not even ashes. Which begs the question, is even Starkiller's lightning actually more powerful than Sidious? Based on the evidence, it's hard to be sure, but a case can certainly be made. Sidious' lightning was also not enough to kill Vader on its own, despite him using his full strength just before Vader killed him. It was the wave of Dark Side energy released from Sidious' death that actually ended up being what killed Vader, not the lightning. And on top of that, Sidious in Dark Empire fired lightning at Luke Skywalker, and Luke was able to get up from it almost immediately, as if nothing really happened. One could argue that Sidious was holding back in DE with Luke. But what reason would he have for that aside from he was trying to turn Luke to the Dark Side? Would Sidious not try to demonstrate the full power of the Dark Side to relay his message? Anyway, now we see that Sidious has never actually easily destroyed a Jedi of notable strength with lightning. The only time it could be argued that Sidious used his full power against a Jedi in the form of lightning and won, was his fight with Yoda ( I don't include Windu because he was injured and distracted when he died, basically he died by cheap-shot) and even then, Yoda wasn't killed, and only his clothes actually appeared to be burned, which means the lightning may have left minor burns at most. Compare this to Vitiate, who (vastly before his prime) had lightning that was "infinitely more powerful" than that of Darth Nyriss. Darth Nyriss' lightning was powerful enough to turn two guards into charred husks, and was (after charging it for a short time) capable of turning both Meetra Surik (the era's second most powerful Jedi) and Lord Scourge, into ash.

Now, Vitiate's PRE-PRIME lightning is FAR more powerful than that, by Revan's admission, and keep in mind that Revan was the one who killed Nyriss with her own lightning. So by all rights, Vitiate's lightning should have been capable of turning ashes into ashes. Fast-forward a little bit, about 300 years later, and we see a strike team of some of the Jedi Order's most powerful members, including the Hero of Tython and Master Told Braga, easily defeated by a storm of Force lightning, keep in mind that he does this extremely easily, and also be aware that this is Vitiate using a Voice; meaning this is not Vitiate using his full power, as he isn't in his original body. Going back to Vitiate's fight with Revan, Vitiate's lightning was powerful enough to overwhelm Revan completely, leaving Revan motionless on the floor with 2nd and 3rd degree burns. So Vitiate was powerful enough to not only get some of his lightning through Revan's defenses, but also managed to stop Revan in his tracks right then and there. Keep in mind that Revan is, by far, the most powerful Jedi that has ever lived up until point, and is likely the second or third most powerful Jedi that will EVER live. We should also look at Sidious' and Vitiate/Valkorion's defeat of Vader level Sith Lords. Sidious' lightning was incapable of killing Vader on its own, instead (as I mentioned before) the Dark Side energy released by Sidious' death is what really did the most damage to Vader, as we've seen Vader tank powerful lightning before.

Switch on over to Darth Marr, a nigh Malgus level combatant, who via power-scaling is comparable to Vader. Marr himself wears protective armor, probably not as resistant to lightning as Vader's is, but still enough to easily protect him from most damage barring a direct hit from a lightsaber. Valkorion was able to EASILY destroy Darth Marr, casually one-shotting Marr, a nigh Vader tier Sith Lord. Also keep in mind that Valkorion almost immediate did the same thing to prince Arcann, Arcann being a Vader+ level Force user and combatant.

We should briefly examine sorcery. The only real point to make here is that Vitiate was the greatest sorcerer alive in an era of great sorcerers. And while Sidious has knowledge and mastery of sorcery, he isn't as open in its use as Vitiate is. Meaning Vitiate is likely more apt to use it in a fight than Sidious is.

So based on this, we can see that while Sidious has more control over lightning, Vitiate/Valkorion's is more outright destructive and deadly than Sidious' is.

I know this seems like I'm trying to lowball Sidious, but I'm really not trying to do that at all. While I really don't like Sidious, he's still easily one of the most powerful characters in the mythos. This thread was at the behest of Raul Macedo, who suggested I make a thread like this for Vitiate vs Sidious and Revan vs Sidious. I know there are probably things I'm missing, but ultimately I think I got the point across and I think I still used enough good examples for Sidious' power compared to Vitiate's for most people to get this thread. I'm also kind of tired, so if this thread seems to be of low-ish quality, or if I didn't seem to try very hard, I did the best with the level of energy I currently have.

Here's how the fight might play out.

A fight between Vitiate and Sidious would really be mostly a Force duel, with minimal use of lightsabers. Sidious would attempt to taunt Vitiate as Vitiate attempted to dominate Sidious' will, and when nether of their strategies worked, they would begin the actual fight. Lightning would be their first answer, throwing all they had at each other, and while Sidious' lightning would be more accurate and focused, Vitiate's would be more overwhelmingly powerful, eventually forcing Sidious back on his other powers. Sidious would attempt using TK, which Vitiate would bat aside easily, and as somebody pointed out in the Revan vs Sidious analysis, Sidious would likely not fall back on sorcery to help him, where-as Vitiate will. It's at this point where Sidious would activate his lightsaber in attempt to deflect Vitiate's lightning, this would work for a time but would quickly fail Sidious, forcing the Sith Lord to revert back to using his Force powers. It's at this point that Sidious would fir a well placed shot of lightning that would take Vitiate to his knees. Both Sith would then begin mustering up their power for one last attack, both knowing that they would fall if they didn't do their absolute best in this instant. Both Sith launch their lightning, Sidious' comes in a thin streak (as it usually does) and Vitiate's comes in a massive torrent (as it usually does) in a meeting of accuracy vs firepower. In the end of it, either Vitiate or Sidious lays dead. If Sidious is the dead one, then great, Vitiate just won. But if Sidious is the victor, he isn't for very long. Vitiate's spirit returns to the field and attacks the now severely wounded and weakened Sidious, either killing him or taking Sidious' body as his new vessel.

Please note that this is a scenario that COULD happen, not one that WOULD happen. It's also very possible for Sidious to win. But I see Vitiate winning at least 5/10 times.

Nobody will read this is you don't use paragraphs kek.

Most of that was cancer, regardless.

Originally posted by MythLord
Most of that was cancer, regardless.
Damn, you must read fast.

Re: The ACTUAL argument

Originally posted by darthbane77
It's much more well put together and written

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Nobody will read this is you don't use paragraphs kek.
I fixed it.

Originally posted by darthbane77
Damn, you must read fast.

Quite. To be fair, I skipped some of the parts that made my head start to hurt. 🙂

Originally posted by MythLord
Quite. To be fair, I skipped some of the parts that made my head start to hurt. 🙂
lol

To be fair, I'm not actually trying to convince anybody that I'm correct. the Sole purpose is to show that, no matter how cancerous you might think the argument is, that I CAN form a cohesive argument. That I'm not actually a terrible debater and I generally do know what I'm talking about.

Originally posted by darthbane77

A fight between Vitiate and Sidious would really be mostly a Force duel, with minimal use of lightsabers. Sidious would attempt to taunt Vitiate as Vitiate attempted to dominate Sidious' will, and when nether of their strategies worked, they would begin the actual fight. Lightning would be their first answer, throwing all they had at each other, and while Sidious' lightning would be more accurate and focused, Vitiate's would be more overwhelmingly powerful, eventually forcing Sidious back on his other powers. Sidious would attempt using TK, which Vitiate would bat aside easily, and as somebody pointed out in the Revan vs Sidious analysis, Sidious would likely not fall back on sorcery to help him, where-as Vitiate will. It's at this point where Sidious would activate his lightsaber in attempt to deflect Vitiate's lightning, this would work for a time but would quickly fail Sidious, forcing the Sith Lord to revert back to using his Force powers. It's at this point that Sidious would fir a well placed shot of lightning that would take Vitiate to his knees. Both Sith would then begin mustering up their power for one last attack, both knowing that they would fall if they didn't do their absolute best in this instant. Both Sith launch their lightning, Sidious' comes in a thin streak (as it usually does) and Vitiate's comes in a massive torrent (as it usually does) in a meeting of accuracy vs firepower. In the end of it, either Vitiate or Sidious lays dead. If Sidious is the dead one, then great, Vitiate just won. But if Sidious is the victor, he isn't for very long. Vitiate's spirit returns to the field and attacks the now severely wounded and weakened Sidious, either killing him or taking Sidious' body as his new vessel.

Originally posted by darthbane77
To be fair, I'm not actually trying to convince anybody that I'm correct. the Sole purpose is to show that, no matter how cancerous you might think the argument is, that I CAN form a cohesive argument. That I'm not actually a terrible debater and I generally do know what I'm talking about.

Oh! Impressive~

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Oh! Impressive~
Not sure if that's sarcasm.......

Trump could use that for his wall.

@darthbane77

What were you expecting? A meaningful feedback from Sheevites? 😂

I shall be the first to appreciate your effort. 👆

Nice effort.
I disagree with nearly everything, tho.

This post is so 2013 smh.

at least you tried; not too many make actual arguments on here anymore.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
@darthbane77

What were you expecting? A meaningful feedback from Sheevites? 😂

I shall be the first to appreciate your effort. 👆

Nah, I knew the Sheevites would bite back pretty hard.