Darth Tyranus vs Karness Muur (Force only)

@Myth -

1. That's what she claimed she'd do. There's certainly no documentation of it in Galactic History. Possible reasons are because she failed or she was killed before she could do it. Or because the Amulet ultimately proved inconsequential in the course of the galaxy... all of which invalidate her claim. Certainly nowhere near enough grounds to say that she's stronger than either of them, lol. Even if she did succeed in creating the Amulet, at best it'd make her a better Alchemist, not more powerful overall.

2. He said "it's working", which clearly means that he's being healed successfully. Milliseconds would not leave Krayt exhausted, don't be silly. There'd be other context to that.

Either that, or Muur's healing proved enough to revitalize him by just that much.

3. Muur and Morne were constantly trading control over the body throughout the fight, and Morne retakes control immediately after Muur hurls Krayt off the cliff. Muur was obviously the dominant one in the scenes where he's possessing her, but that doesn't mean that he wasn't fending off resistance from Morne simultaneously.

4. Not aware of that. The publisher summary admits that Krayt may no longer be the most powerful Sith in the galaxy, and Muur outshining Krayt's powers seems to be pretty conclusive to me. Slapping on circumstances that aren't indicated anywhere seems like a rather weak defense. I mean, we only saw a Lightning clash, but if we take Muur's comment about feeding off Krayt's powers at face value, he was probably winning the exchange. We can also assume that he was absorbing Maladi's Lightning at the same time, not just Krayt's, although we don't see Maladi on-panel again until the Maelstrom.

Originally posted by MythLord
In Book of the Sith Sorzus notes that she made a third amulet, one far more powerful than either Muur's or Dreypa's. It's reasonable to assume she became more powerful.

Insider states outright that Muur > Krayt.

You can say it just as easily -- proving it's as massive a hinderence is much harder. Vong implants have made Force users as powerful as Jacen(albeit a teenage Jacen) become near-deaf to the Force and they eat away at Krayt's insides by the second.

Karness was already noted as overpowering Morne's will, so I doubt she'd be as much a hinderence as wasting the vast majority of your Force reserves on insects that are eating you from the inside-out and lowering your connection to the Force.

The two seemed at a stalemate. And it was stated Muur "outshown" both Cade and Krayt, IIRC, which can be attributed to Hett's poor condition. Insider notes that Krayt was the most powerful Dark Sider of the time, if I'm not mistaken, and that includes Muur.

However, there is a point to be made here. The Insider saying that Karness Muur "possessed powers that outshone them both" could be referring to the acts he performed, rather than his intrinsic ability. mmm

Don't take it up with AP though, she struggles with any level of critical thinking. 🙁

"Possessed powers" does not sound like a measure of his acts at all, but rather how powerful he actually is.

Well the way I see it, it can be interpreted in either of two ways, that the powers he possessed outshone then both, or that through the powers he possessed he outshone them.

I don't think there's much room for interpretation. The powers that Muur possessed outshone the powers that Cade and Krayt possessed. That's it.

Originally posted by SunRazer
That's what she claimed she'd do. There's certainly no documentation of it in Galactic History. Possible reasons are because she failed or she was killed before she could do it. Or because the Amulet ultimately proved inconsequential in the course of the galaxy... all of which invalidate her claim. Certainly nowhere near enough grounds to say that she's stronger than either of them, lol. Even if she did succeed in creating the Amulet, at best it'd make her a better Alchemist, not more powerful overall.

She had a hell of a lot of time before she died to make the amulet, though, so I doubt she wouldn't. Honestly, Dreypa's amulet wasn't really consequential in the course of the galaxy and his amulet was as powerful as Muur's. If we're judging power by who had more influence on the galaxy, then Vader should be > Yoda, but that's not really the case.

Syn notes her amulet will be "far stronger" than Muur's or Dreypa's, which implies to me she's aiming to be more powerful than either.

Originally posted by SunRazer
2. He said "it's working", which clearly means that he's being healed successfully. Milliseconds would not leave Krayt exhausted, don't be silly. There'd be other context to that.

Either that, or Muur's healing proved enough to revitalize him by just that much.

Right, but the effect it'd have would be insignificant. Oh and yes Krayt has, actually. I timed his duel with the Imperial Knights, which he noted left his "body failing", and it was shorter than the amount of time it took two Imperial Knights to slice through two droids:

So either those Force sensitives are incredibly slow and challenged by random droids, or Krayt's fight with the Imperial Guards lasted a fraction of a second. Given at what speed Force users operate, the latter is more likely.

He's fought rakghouls for several minutes before engaging Muur again.

Originally posted by SunRazer
3. Muur and Morne were constantly trading control over the body throughout the fight, and Morne retakes control immediately after Muur hurls Krayt off the cliff. Muur was obviously the dominant one in the scenes where he's possessing her, but that doesn't mean that he wasn't fending off resistance from Morne simultaneously.

And like I said, I doubt someone like Morne would be a really big deal for Karness to surpress given he manages to overwhelm her will within a few seconds whereas she has to fight for a noticeably longer period of time before overcoming Karness. Both Muur and even Celeste admit that she's losing her control over him:

In any case, it's far less a hinderence than most of your Force reserves getting wasted and the few you have remaining getting rapidly

Originally posted by SunRazer
4. Not aware of that. The publisher summary admits that Krayt may no longer be the most powerful Sith in the galaxy, and Muur outshining Krayt's powers seems to be pretty conclusive to me. Slapping on circumstances that aren't indicated anywhere seems like a rather weak defense. I mean, we only saw a Lightning clash, but if we take Muur's comment about feeding off Krayt's powers at face value, he was probably winning the exchange. We can also assume that he was absorbing Maladi's Lightning at the same time, not just Krayt's, although we don't see Maladi on-panel again until the Maelstrom.

There are obviously circumstances there, lmao. Denying they had a massive impact is ridiculous and something I'd expect from AP, but not you. And Draining someone doesn't really mean you're better/winning the exchange, 'cause then that makes Krayt > Luke. 🙂

Also, Maladi actually left the fight. Before Muur and Krayt started exchanging lightning, Maladi and Krayt bombarded Celeste with it then we cut away and cut back to just see Krayt engaging Morne on his own in blade-to-blade combat:

Originally posted by SunRazer
I don't think there's much room for interpretation. The powers that Muur possessed outshone the powers that Cade and Krayt possessed. That's it.

@Myth - Only have time for quick replies.

1. Her aims aren't what really happened. So we're back to her being a contemporary of Muur's, not a superior.

2. I'm not sure if we can take time like that literally. It seems pretty absurd that milliseconds would leave someone like Krayt in such a desperate state. You're forgetting that Krayt at this time was still far more powerful than anybody else in the Sith Order, and he surely engaged Cade for longer than a few milliseconds. He certainly wasn't exhausted after that.

3. The fact that she's losing control doesn't change my point. She isn't going to stand there and let Muur take over her freely. She's fighting back, and he's having to contend with that.

4. The circumstances are being disproportionately blown out in favor of Krayt, and Krayt's Draining of Luke wasn't anything remotely comparable to Muur vs Krayt.

5. The frame of Celeste vs Krayt was so small that we can't tell where Maladi is. We do know that Maladi is facing Muur when she gets blasted away. She was fighting against Muur as well, or at least joined by the time the second Force exchange happened.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
No it's not, you've added contexts. I can do that to. For example: the powers that Muur possessed outshone the powers that Cade and Krayt displayed. Or to put it more plainly, he outdid them.

I didn't add any contexts at all. Heck, you're the one adding contexts. The quote makes no reference to displayed powers, only possessed powers. It's natural to assume that it'd be referring to that in the case of all three. There's no reason to assume that it'd refer to possessed powers for Muur but suddenly displayed powers for Cade and Krayt, given that there's not even the slightest mention of displayed powers anywhere.

Per Occam's Razor, we should go with the path of least assumption, which means assuming that "possessed powers" applies to all of them uniformly.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I'm not seeing any evidence that Krayt was expending reserves holding back his implants. Also do you have a quote/source on Jacen being defeaned?

Mara, someone infected with a similar disease, was:

"While escorting a diplomat to Monor II, Mara became infected with deadly coomb spores planted by the Yuuzhan Vong agent Nom Anor. Mara used her Jedi abilities to sustain herself, but the effort proved debilitating."

-- The New Essential Guide to Characters

"No medicine, no therapy, had come close to treating the rare disease, and only her own internal strength, her use of the Force, was somewhat keeping it in check."

-- Vector Prime

As for Jacen, I don't have the quotes on me. But you're free to check Dark Tide for it.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I'm not seeing where they stalemate tbh, Muur blocking and absorbing his lightning while mocking him isn't really stalemating.

Sith are arrogant cucks; they taunt each other even when they're on the losing side. Even Cade does that. Plus, he only taunted Krayt while draining him of vital energies.

And Muur at one point seemed pretty angry at Krayt when they exchanged. Also, Karness only attempted to redirect/attack Krayt once he got stabbed by Azlyn which implies was incapable of doing so while Krayt was placing pressure on him.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I didn't add any contexts at all. Heck, you're the one adding contexts. The quote makes no reference to displayed powers, only possessed powers. It's natural to assume that it'd be referring to that in the case of all three. There's no reason to assume that it'd refer to possessed powers for Muur but suddenly displayed powers for Cade and Krayt, given that there's not even the slightest mention of displayed powers anywhere.

Per Occam's Razor, we should go with the path of least assumption, which means assuming that "possessed powers" applies to all of them uniformly.

And yes I am adding contexts too, that what you do with open ended statements, which as I said, can be done in one of two ways.

Regardless your getting muddled, I'm not saying its referring to different things for each parties, but rather displayed powers for both. A display he pulled off through the powers he possessed. Hence the use of the term. It's quite simple a reading, it's merely a case of reading "that" as a conjunction, rather than a pronoun. i.e. he possessed powers [through which he] outshone them both.

I didn't add any words. I'm using the wording of "possessed powers".

In any case, Muur > Krayt. You seem to agree with me on that. I'm not interested in furthering the discussion on semantics.

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. Her aims aren't what really happened. So we're back to her being a contemporary of Muur's, not a superior.

2. I'm not sure if we can take time like that literally. It seems pretty absurd that milliseconds would leave someone like Krayt in such a desperate state. You're forgetting that Krayt at this time was still far more powerful than anybody else in the Sith Order, and he surely engaged Cade for longer than a few milliseconds. He certainly wasn't exhausted after that.

3. The fact that she's losing control doesn't change my point. She isn't going to stand there and let Muur take over her freely. She's fighting back, and he's having to contend with that.

4. The circumstances are being disproportionately blown out in favor of Krayt, and Krayt's Draining of Luke wasn't anything remotely comparable to Muur vs Krayt.

5. The frame of Celeste vs Krayt was so small that we can't tell where Maladi is. We do know that Maladi is facing Muur when she gets blasted away. She was fighting against Muur as well, or at least joined by the time the second Force exchange happened.

1. We don't know if it happened or not. We just know that she wanted to make an extremely potent amulet and had both the resources and time to do so. For her not to do that, especially when the Dark Jedi eventually wiped each other out due to greed, seems unlikely to me.

2. Well Krayt's fight and the droid fight happened simltaneously and by the time the Imperial Knights were finished, they sensed their comrades fell to Krayt. So yeah, I see no reason not to take it literally other than your own opinion.

Krayt being the most powerful Sith in his order and still being so badly weakened from such a short duel on speaks to how much damage the Vong implants would do to lesser Sith. And yeah, he fought Cade for a longer period of time and Cade also openly mocks Krayt as to how badly these Vong implants are weakening him:

He even calls him "weak" compared to the other Sith and implies they'd turn on him and kill him. He's obviously the most powerful person in the galaxy, but as a combatant the Vong implants severely weaken him.

3. Fair enough. Now prove to me this weakens Karness as much as the Vong implants weaken Krayt. Since Krayt has to both fend them off and is still being eaten alive/deafened by their effects. Muur just has to split his attention.

4. Why isn't it comparable? Krayt and Luke were both facing Abeloth, with Krayt aiming to kill both, much like Muur and Hett when they fought. And also much like Muur, Krayt drained his opposition(Luke and Abeloth). The circumstances are fairly similar.

5. Small or not, I wonder why Maladi isn't blasting Celeste and letting her have a conversation with Krayt? She had a considerable period of time to do anything to help Krayt, yet didn't. Which means she was probably pre-occupied by the several Jedi surrounding her.

Originally posted by MythLord
Mara, someone infected with a similar disease, was:

"While escorting a diplomat to Monor II, Mara became infected with deadly coomb spores planted by the Yuuzhan Vong agent Nom Anor. Mara used her Jedi abilities to sustain herself, but the effort proved debilitating."

-- The New Essential Guide to Characters

"No medicine, no therapy, had come close to treating the rare disease, and only her own internal strength, her use of the Force, was somewhat keeping it in check."

-- Vector Prime

As for Jacen, I don't have the quotes on me. But you're free to check Dark Tide for it.

Sith are arrogant cucks; they taunt each other even when they're on the losing side. Even Cade does that. Plus, he only taunted Krayt while draining him of vital energies.

And Muur at one point seemed pretty angry at Krayt when they exchanged. Also, Karness only attempted to redirect/attack Krayt once he got stabbed by Azlyn which implies was incapable of doing so while Krayt was placing pressure on him.

1. There's no proof that she had the time to do so. There's not even proof that she did it. Again, she could well have failed in doing so. Her commentary on how powerful her amulet will be etc. is just typical Sith bravado.

2. Krayt's condition improved when he fought Muur, though. Not by much, but it did. Regardless, Krayt clearly wasn't getting tired after a few milliseconds of combat, so we can safely dismiss that argument of yours.

3. There's no direct indication of how much the seeds weaken Krayt and how much the mental war weakened Muur, lol. All we know is that they are definitely not in their primes.

4. Krayt was using Drain against Luke and Abeloth as they fought each other. Luke and Abeloth were helpless since they were concentrating on each other — they couldn't do anything about Krayt.

In this scenario, Krayt and Muur are focusing on each other alone.

Besides, if they're both absorbing each other's Lightning, then Muur's Drain is clearly tipping the scales in his favour. He's winning.

5. I already accounted for the possibility of her being briefly occupied at the time of that specific panel. She reengaged with Muur by the time of the Maelstrom, so it seems to me that she participated in the Lightning exchange as well.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I didn't add any words. I'm using the wording of "possessed powers".

In any case, Muur > Krayt. You seem to agree with me on that. I'm not interested in furthering the discussion on semantics.

And I did based on this quote, but its become apparent to me the quote is open to multiple interpretations.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I supposed the fact that his ability to hold them off diminished over time proves he got weaker in the Force then.

And they got stronger as they kept eating him, yeah.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Yes but if he has time to talk, he's evidently not strained. And absorbing your opponents lightning simply isn't stalemating, also, Celeste regained control half way through the fight, so you can't make those claims.

Krayt is also talking despite pouring his heart and soul into the lightning; doesn't really mean anything.

Also, I think you're confusing the two Tutaminis instances. In one case: Celeste has full control and is deflecting Maladi's/Krayt's lightning briefly. Next we cut away and then cut back to see Krayt and Celeste fighting with their sabers. Then Krayt attacks with lightning and Muur takes over.

@Razer

1. According to BoS, she had more than a year or so. Was she so occupied writting her diary that she wouldn't do something that'd automatically place her above her peers, which is what she strived for?

2. Barely improved, yeah. The vast time he spent fighting would more than compensate. And you haven't really explained why my argument doesn't work; the proof is all there, you just won't accept it.

3. Yes, there is, lol. We can scale from Mara and Jacen and their respective experiences with similar illnesses and also his duels with the Imperial Knights/Cade which had him severely weakened after an exceptionally short amount of time. It's influencing Krayt in more ways than one that just having an annoying voice in your head really doesn't compare as a hinderence.

4. Abeloth was fighting both of them. It's not like Krayt just stood to the side and watched while eating a bit of soul popcorn, he directly fought with her and Luke and still Drained her despite Luke being cautious of him and Abby seeing him as an actual threat.

5. Still no proof she re-engaged; not when Shado, Cade, Azlyn and a few others were closing in to finish Krayt and she'd be trying to prevent them from doing that. I mean, it's possible, though doesn't change my argument very much.