Darth Tyranus vs Karness Muur (Force only)

Started by Beniboybling4 pages

Originally posted by MythLord
Krayt is also talking despite pouring his heart and soul into the lightning; doesn't really mean anything.
OK but its more that he's smiling while doing it. He's clearly not in a very uncomfortable position. Still you haven't explained how you can infer a stalemate from tutaniamis, or was Yoda stalemating Dooku too?

Also, I think you're confusing the two Tutaminis instances. In one case: Celeste has full control and is deflecting Maladi's/Krayt's lightning briefly. Next we cut away and then cut back to see Krayt and Celeste fighting with their sabers. Then Krayt attacks with lightning and Muur takes over.
Not confusing anything, I was making the point that for much of the fight Muur couldn't attack because of Morne.

1. We don't know how long it takes to make the Talismans, so that doesn't prove anything.

2. The proof of your argument not working is in the fact that Krayt has fought for longer than milliseconds without becoming an absolute wreck, lol.

3. Muur isn't "just having a head in his voice". The constant effort of having to imprison Celeste within her own body would be of notable detriment to him. There's no precise definition of how much it weakened him, just like there's no precise definition of how much Krayt was weakened, only a general one. You can't make a precise comparison between the two.

4. Cautionsness doesn't mean shit, lol. Luke and Abeloth were almost completely preoccupied with each other.

5. Proof she re-engaged is in the fact that she's facing Muur when she gets blown away. And it might not affect your argument much, but it solidifies Muur's superiority over Krayt.

1. She made Muur's Talisman within her first year of Exile. Afterwards, there's over a year or so before her journal ends and we know she outlived it

2. Did I say he'd become an absolute wreck? No, I said he was pretty noticeably exhausted and his body was "failing him" after a fraction of a second in combat. The fact that he can still keep going afterwards is just a testament to his Force reserves and how incredible they are. It doesn't, however, change the fact that his Vong implants greatly weakened him second-by-second.

3. Correct, you can't make any precise comparison, but somehow I think logically something like the Vong implants(especially when they were in effect for several minutes, and they just need seconds to greatly diminish Krayt's reserves) is going to be a substantially better hinderence than a contest of wills with someone who's noticeably/considerably weaker than you. Krayt is not only undergoing another contest of wills by keeping the implants in check, but his Force-sensitivity is being dulled and he's

4. Right, being wary of your enemy clearly means you're not focusing on him... Sorry, but no. And Abeloth was literally wrestling with Krayt when he drained her. She's obviously not preoccupied with just Luke and tried to incapacitated Krayt with a Force Blast to the face. And even after Luke realized that the Force Drain was effecting him, he still couldn't effectively stop it(or so it's implied).

5. So was Shado Vao, who was meters away from her. And despite Muur's "solidified superiority", I like how he waited for Azlyn to stab Krayt before unleashing his Maelstrom.

Also, with regards to Muur's accolade, I realize it can be viewed in a certain light: it says Karness' powers outshown both Krayt and Cade. The plural here obviously refers to his abilities in the Force, rather than his power in it. This is very true as Karness Muur has Dark Healing/Transfer and the ability to turn people into rakghouls. This is something that very much does "outshow" Krayt and Skywalker, but doesn't neccessarily mean he's the more powerful Force user with regards to raw power(or more practical applications like TK or lightning).

Originally posted by Beniboybling
OK but its more that he's smiling while doing it. He's clearly not in a very uncomfortable position. Still you haven't explained how you can infer a stalemate from tutaniamis, or was Yoda stalemating Dooku too?

He seems to be smiling because he was draining Krayt, more than anything else.
Also:

"The two Force warriors attempted to defeat each other with displays of telekinesis and other Force abilities, but they were too evenly matched."

-- Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force

"The two engaged in a titanic struggle of Force powers, neither besting the other."

-- The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

"Count Dooku and Master Yoda engaging in a titanic struggle of Force powers on Geonosis."

-- The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

Huehuehuehue. No, but seriously, at least Yoda "easily" redirected Dooku's lightning back at him.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Not confusing anything, I was making the point that for much of the fight Muur couldn't attack because of Morne.

Well I'm not referring to the entire fight. I'm referring to the lightning exchange between Krayt and Muur near the end of the fight where Karness only retaliated to Krayt's lightning assault and stopped defending after Krayt got stabbed.

1. You didn't answer my question, how does this even begin suggest parity? And the point about him smiling is that he wouldn't be if he was seriously strained. And if Yoda actually showing strain is easily absorbing lightning, this definitely is.

Thanks for those though, I'll add them to my databank of when sourcebooks have been hyperbolic and wrong. 🙂

2. Yeah Krayt gets stabbed immediately after, before Krayt even stops attacking. That really means nothing.

1. Meh, I was wrong. It doesn't show parity. And was Yoda showing strain? Seemed like an easy enough deflection to me.

2. Not immediately afterwards, tbh. They had a nice little chat while they were locked in the Tutaminis/lightning struggle before Azlyn stepped in.

On a side note: Karness still failed to kill Krayt after Krayt got stabbed, despite him unleashing his most powerful attack(that he's shown, anyways) while amped and then hurling him off a cliff. Krayt effectively shielded himself from a massive fall and Muur's attack despite being in an incredibly poor state.

1. Gd. 😈 And he looks a little strained to me, maybe not that much tho.

2. They do that a lot in Legacy tbh, I think Muur just likes to trash talk.

Originally posted by MythLord
Also, with regards to Muur's accolade, I realize it can be viewed in a certain light: it says Karness' powers outshown both Krayt and Cade. The plural here obviously refers to his abilities in the Force, rather than his power in it. This is very true as Karness Muur has Dark Healing/Transfer and the ability to turn people into rakghouls. This is something that very much does "outshow" Krayt and Skywalker, but doesn't neccessarily mean he's the more powerful Force user with regards to raw power(or more practical applications like TK or lightning).
This is also a good point, and all in all I agree. Karness' displays in that fight (summoning rakghoul armies, blasting Krayt and co. away) dominated the fight and outshone everyone else present, and the passage describes him within these contexts.

1. He's old. Celeste is young and fresh(anatomically).

2. Yeah... it's actually great banter most of the time.

Out of curiosity, how big would you say the gap between Muur and Vong Krayt is? So far, I see them as being more-or-less equals given Krayt's performance in such an awful state. mmm

Dooku wins

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Muur wins.

Muur 10/10.

He's arguably Dooku's equal as a swordsman given that prime Krayt should be Kenobi tier if not higher. Especially when taking into account the fact that Muur was 5,000 years out of practice at the time too.

Originally posted by MythLord
1. She made Muur's Talisman within her first year of Exile. Afterwards, there's over a year or so before her journal ends and we know she outlived it

Well, she had yet to make Dreypa's one before her journal ended. And making a far more powerful talisman likely would have taken substantially longer.

2. Did I say he'd become an absolute wreck? No, I said he was pretty noticeably exhausted and his body was "failing him" after a fraction of a second in combat. The fact that he can still keep going afterwards is just a testament to his Force reserves and how incredible they are. It doesn't, however, change the fact that his Vong implants greatly weakened him second-by-second.

It doesn't matter, lol. He was not "noticeably exhausted" in the first milliseconds of his fights with Cade or whoever else. He fought longer without showing any sort of exhaustion.

3. Correct, you can't make any precise comparison, but somehow I think logically something like the Vong implants(especially when they were in effect for several minutes, and they just need seconds to greatly diminish Krayt's reserves) is going to be a substantially better hinderence than a contest of wills with someone who's noticeably/considerably weaker than you. Krayt is not only undergoing another contest of wills by keeping the implants in check, but his Force-sensitivity is being dulled and he's

Morne being weaker than Muur in terms of Force power is completely irrelevant here. It's willpower that counts, and Morne's kept Muur sealed within her form for well over a century. So yes, it's a great contest between the two of them indeed. Remember that Celeste is almost always the dominant one in their willpower contest.

4. Right, being wary of your enemy clearly means you're not focusing on him... Sorry, but no. And Abeloth was literally wrestling with Krayt when he drained her. She's obviously not preoccupied with just Luke and tried to incapacitated Krayt with a Force Blast to the face. And even after Luke realized that the Force Drain was effecting him, he still couldn't effectively stop it(or so it's implied).

Luke couldn't stop Krayt because he was primarily diverting his strength towards Abeloth, and had already been injured at that point, IIRC. Not to mention that Krayt was hurting himself in the process, something that Muur evidently wasn't doing. So the comparison only goes so far.

5. So was Shado Vao, who was meters away from her. And despite Muur's "solidified superiority", I like how he waited for Azlyn to stab Krayt before unleashing his Maelstrom.

It's entirely possible that Shado was looking to enter the fight moments before the Maelstrom. Maladi being turned away from Shado means that she was no longer fighting him.

Also, with regards to Muur's accolade, I realize it can be viewed in a certain light: it says Karness' powers outshown both Krayt and Cade. The plural here obviously refers to his abilities in the Force, rather than his power in it. This is very true as Karness Muur has Dark Healing/Transfer and the ability to turn people into rakghouls. This is something that very much does "outshow" Krayt and Skywalker, but doesn't neccessarily mean he's the more powerful Force user with regards to raw power(or more practical applications like TK or lightning).

Under that interpretation, Muur's Lightning would've been outshining Krayt's anyway. I mean, you can argue the semantics however much you want, but what the quote's trying to say is that Muur > Vong Krayt & Cade Skywalker.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Well, she had yet to make Dreypa's one before her journal ended. And making a far more powerful talisman likely would have taken substantially longer.

And we know she succeeded in making that amulet for Dreypa:

Sorzus is currently two for two; I fail to see why she wouldn't/couldn't make an amulet for herself given she had over a year to do so and the resources neccessary.

Originally posted by SunRazer
It doesn't matter, lol. He was not "noticeably exhausted" in the first milliseconds of his fights with Cade or whoever else. He fought longer without showing any sort of exhaustion.

Right... Cade openly noting how "weak" and "sick" Krayt is while fighting him and sensing how much the Vong implants were costing Krayt clearly isn't showing any sign of exhaustion? Yeah, right.

The fact that it isn't outright shown doesn't mean that isn't the case, Nova. Much like how it's not always stated a nexus affects a person, but we know it does because that's how it functions. Your appeal to ignorance is noted, but worthless.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Morne being weaker than Muur in terms of Force power is completely irrelevant here. It's willpower that counts, and Morne's kept Muur sealed within her form for well over a century. So yes, it's a great contest between the two of them indeed. Remember that Celeste is almost always the dominant one in their willpower contest.

The fact that Morne was holding him back for over a century actually strengthens my argument as she'd now be on her ropes end after a 100 years of containing Karness(actually, she notes she controlled him for several millennia). She doesn't really have infinite mental fortitude and now Muur is starting to easily bypass and possess her while also "threatening to usurp her":

She's worn out and even in casual situations she loses control of him:

Not to mention Muur's pretty confident of his victory over Morne, as well.
It still isn't as big a hinderence as the Vong implants. In fact, Muur has access to both his and Celeste's Force reserves.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Luke couldn't stop Krayt because he was primarily diverting his strength towards Abeloth, and had already been injured at that point, IIRC. Not to mention that Krayt was hurting himself in the process, something that Muur evidently wasn't doing. So the comparison only goes so far.

He wasn't injured yet at that point. Whether or not Krayt was being injured by Abeloth would be irrelevant since he still succeeded in sapping her and weakening her noticeably and growing because of it, something she wouldn't really allow.

Originally posted by SunRazer
It's entirely possible that Shado was looking to enter the fight moments before the Maelstrom. Maladi being turned away from Shado means that she was no longer fighting him.

And there's still nothing to imply she actually helped Krayt after the two had a pause in combat. Even if she did help him, it was for literally a few seconds where he was siphoning Krayt's power.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Under that interpretation, Muur's Lightning would've been outshining Krayt's anyway. I mean, you can argue the semantics however much you want, but what the quote's trying to say is that Muur > Vong Krayt & Cade Skywalker.

It was outshining Krayt's... due to the sickly state Krayt was in at the time, though. The quote is obviously contextual and doesn't automatically mean Karness Muur's power > Krayt's power.

Originally posted by MythLord
And we know she succeeded in making that amulet for Dreypa:

Sorzus is currently two for two; I fail to see why she wouldn't/couldn't make an amulet for herself given she had over a year to do so and the resources neccessary.

She succeeded in making one for Dreypa after her journal entry. That in of itself would take time, and creating a far more powerful talisman would presumably take even more time, assuming it's even possible. Again, the fact that we have no confirmation of the Syn Talisman existing casts doubt over whether she managed to craft it in the first place.

Right... Cade openly noting how "weak" and "sick" Krayt is while fighting him and sensing how much the Vong implants were costing Krayt clearly isn't showing any sign of exhaustion? Yeah, right.

The fact that it isn't outright shown doesn't mean that isn't the case, Nova. Much like how it's not always stated a nexus affects a person, but we know it does because that's how it functions. Your appeal to ignorance is noted, but worthless.

That's a sign of fatigue, not exhaustion. And that didn't happen within milliseconds.

You clearly don't even know what an appeal to ignorance means; just avoid using terms you don't understand. My point is that Krayt was clearly fighting for longer than milliseconds without being drained to the extent that you suggested earlier. That could well be the product of Muur's Dark Transfer, which we know worked (we just don't know the extent of it). I also find it interesting that Muur doesn't comment on Krayt's waning power, yet Cade did. It doesn't mean Krayt wasn't tired, but it lends credence to my stance.

]The fact that Morne was holding him back for over a century actually strengthens my argument as she'd now be on her ropes end after a 100 years of containing Karness(actually, she notes she controlled him for several millennia). She doesn't really have infinite mental fortitude and now Muur is starting to easily bypass and possess her while also "threatening to usurp her":

She's worn out and even in casual situations she loses control of him:

We've gone through this already. Her influence was declining but not absent altogether. Ergo, Muur was still contending with her for control over her body.

These rather piteous attempts at bringing down Muur's situation are amusing. Just accept the fact that he wasn't at his full power and move on.

Not to mention Muur's pretty confident of his victory over Morne, as well.

As he was that he'd slain Sith far greater than Krayt.

It still isn't as big a hinderence as the Vong implants. In fact, Muur has access to both his and Celeste's Force reserves.

I don't know why the Vong implants are such a big focus of your argument. We're only suggesting that Muur > Vong Krayt, not Reborn Krayt, lol. The implants are a part of Vong Krayt's character; you don't subtract from his power again, lol.

Besides, the Muur in this thread is more powerful than Legacy Muur on merit of the fact that he isn't contending with Celeste for control over her body.

He wasn't injured yet at that point. Whether or not Krayt was being injured by Abeloth would be irrelevant since he still succeeded in sapping her and weakening her noticeably and growing because of it, something she wouldn't really allow.

She was weakened and contending with Luke at the same time, not to mention possessing various other bodies around the galaxy. But forget that; your comparison is just invalid. Muur Draining Krayt in a 1 on 1 as they were exchanging Lightning means that he had the upper hand. Krayt draining a distracted Luke and Abeloth who were primarily fighting each other, not him, doesn't mean he was beating them both. That's like comparing person X stabbing Y in a knife fight to person W stabbing U and Z in the back as the those two fight. They're not the same.

And there's still nothing to imply she actually helped Krayt after the two had a pause in combat. Even if she did help him, it was for literally a few seconds where he was siphoning Krayt's power.

There is something to imply it: at the time that she got blasted away by the Maelstrom, she was facing Muur from the same angle that she had been facing Celeste earlier on, and she was around the same range.

It was outshining Krayt's... due to the sickly state Krayt was in at the time, though. The quote is obviously contextual and doesn't automatically mean Karness Muur's power > Krayt's power.

Not sure if you're three pages behind the discussion or not, but we're talking about Vong Krayt. Krayt's sickly condition being a given since that's part of what makes him "Vong Krayt". I wasn't comparing raw power; I was comparing current, available power.

Muur easily

Dammit, I forgot about this. We can always finish it Nova... but then again, you're leaving soon so...

Muur thought it's very close.

👆

Tyranus