DOS Doomsday vs Thor

Originally posted by darthgoober
I was never saying he's identical to a Kryptonian, you can see that just by looking at the guy. When you get right down to it I'm not even saying that the native kryptonians BACK THEN were identical to those of Supes's era... I mean there had been thousands of years between them and I don't doubt that some evolution had occured.

But again, DD basically sees Supes as Betron(who wasn't from Krypton) so it seems logical that at the very least there's probably some common ancestry. I'm not saying that he's definitively of "Kryptonian stock" anymore, as I already acknowledged I missed those things you pointed out in your previous post. But even my stance that he was basically Kryptonian was simply one more potential indicator of what I'm talking about. He feeds on solar energy whether he's Kryptonian or not.

1) While Doomsday is kryptonian created, he is not Kryptonian. He doesn't gain power under the sun like Superman. I haven't seen any evidence he uses the sun in the same photonucleic efffect of kryptonians as it being the source of his powers.
He is written to use it as sustenance. His strength is written as being derived specifically from his evolution and adaptations. Both on panel, and in the bio.

Both aspects described here in his origin;
"Doomsday does not need to eat or breathe instead drawing in and storing energy to fuel his superstrong body from solar radiation."

AND

"Designed to evolve with each Death, Doomsday becomes more powerful.."
https://osck.wordpress.com/2008/05/05/who-is-doomsday-hes-coming-to-smallville-maybe/doomsday-origin-2/

Which is paraphrased from this comic panel: "He does not breathe or eat. He has no internal organs and minimal fluids. He is almost solid throughout. Nourished by solar energy that he can store for a millennium if necessary."
http://static2.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11119/111196008/4307081-9.jpg

2) Doomsday does get stronger as he gets angry. However his base alone still seems to have him ranked among the most powerful beings in the universe, we never saw him appear weak at any point. To think he didn't achieve his upper limit against Superman, who pummeled him to the death in the street after a long fight is just false. Doomsday as written pushes himself until his limit, dies, and comes back even stronger. This is consistent. He did it to the Radiant. He did it to the Guardian. He did it to Superman.

His strength being amplified by rage is described here.
" The guardians later determined the creatures strength fed off it's rage."
http://static5.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11119/111196008/4307129-4.jpg

The effects of death and evolution, and rage, are listed as the source of his growing power. Not solar power. His body uses solar power for nourishment, independent of his measure of his power-level.

The effect of his death and return made Doomsday essentially invincible after Superman. Only entropy was able to defeat him after that, and it was described as being BECAUSE of his Death and evolution.

Originally posted by Parmaniac
By looking at the old scans, was it ever revealed who wrapped Doomsday up and placed him on earth?

The Calatonians.

It was their ceremonial way of dealing with the dead. After the Radiant busted all over him, DD was pooped. Because he was a murderer, he was unfit to be buried, so they shot him into space. Then he landed on Earth.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
That's pretty much all we need.

As Supes then incredulously asks Wavey, how did he come back, Wavey said that his body regenerates itself and comes back STRONGER than before. This is said in the panel immediately after Wavey finishes telling his story of how DD came to Earth.

That means, well....when he came back to life, he was stronger than before.

I personally hate referencing DBZ in comic book debates, but it's the only thing that leaps to mind with an example of what I'm talking about. Saiyins are known to increase in strength across the board after every fight right? Well imagin that a Saiyin gets beaten into a coma and left for dead and the condition lasts for several days. Would you really assume that as soon as he woke up after getting beaten into a bloody heap and laying in a coma without nurishment of any kind for several days that he'd actually be stronger than he was in his prime before the coma?

And again, I'm not actually suggesting that DD's powers are synonamous with that of a Saiyin, I'm simply using them as an example of my way of thinking on the matter. I fully believe that DD WOULD have been stronger if he'd been allowed to regather his strength and I fully believe that he was gathering strength throughout the fight, I'm simply saying that we have no definitive proof that he'd actually reached his "prime" condition yet. His lack of protrusions suggest that he hadn't reached it when he first emerged, and I personally believe that Supes specifically noting that the Warrior hit harder supports his not actually reaching that point by the end.

Originally posted by Parmaniac
By looking at the old scans, was it ever revealed who wrapped Doomsday up and placed him on earth?

Originally posted by Juntai
Now that you've finally stepped back from his bones being an identifier to his power level since he can control them, and now being kryptonian finally, you need to start to rationalize the rest of this into your model.

1) While Doomsday is kryptonian created, he is not Kryptonian. He doesn't gain power under the sun like Superman. I haven't seen any evidence he uses the sun in the same photonucleic efffect of kryptonians as it being the source of his powers.
He is written to use it as sustenance. His strength is written as being derived specifically from his evolution and adaptations. Both on panel, and in the bio.

Both aspects described here in his origin;
[b]"Doomsday does not need to eat or breathe instead drawing in and storing energy to fuel his superstrong body from solar radiation."

AND

"Designed to evolve with each Death, Doomsday becomes more powerful.."
https://osck.wordpress.com/2008/05/05/who-is-doomsday-hes-coming-to-smallville-maybe/doomsday-origin-2/

Which is paraphrased from this comic panel: "He does not breathe or eat. He has no internal organs and minimal fluids. He is almost solid throughout. Nourished by solar energy that he can store for a millennium if necessary."
http://static2.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11119/111196008/4307081-9.jpg

2) Doomsday does get stronger as he gets angry. However his base alone still seems to have him ranked among the most powerful beings in the universe, we never saw him appear weak at any point. To think he didn't achieve his upper limit against Superman, who pummeled him to the death in the street after a long fight is just false. Doomsday as written pushes himself until his limit, dies, and comes back even stronger. This is consistent. He did it to the Radiant. He did it to the Guardian. He did it to Superman.

His strength being amplified by rage is described here.
" The guardians later determined the creatures strength fed off it's rage."
http://static5.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11119/111196008/4307129-4.jpg

The effects of death and evolution, and rage, are listed as the source of his growing power. Not solar power. His body uses solar power for nourishment, independent of his measure of his power-level.

The effect of his death and return made Doomsday essentially invincible after Superman. Only entropy was able to defeat him after that, and it was described as being BECAUSE of his Death and evolution. [/B]

Now are you interested in the BZ or not? If I'm doing nothing but outright ignoring empirical evidence and trolling, then surely the judges will see it and you'll achieve the "absolute victory" scenario. At this point it seems more like you're worried that the judges will at the very least decide that mine is a valid argument to use even if they don't rule that DOS DD should exist as an arc dependant character just as they've done with WWH even though later arcs suggest that even during that arc that he was still holding back and then went on to show what WWH was really capable of when he cut loose.

Except we have a mod ruling that WWH can do what Savage can do..

Originally posted by darthgoober
Yes but he was still deprived of sustance for 250,000 years before he busted out of that box and lacked visible evolutions that he'd had previously.

I personally hate referencing DBZ in comic book debates, but it's the only thing that leaps to mind with an example of what I'm talking about. Saiyins are known to increase in strength across the board after every fight right? Well imagin that a Saiyin gets beaten into a coma and left for dead and the condition lasts for several days. Would you really assume that as soon as he woke up after getting beaten into a bloody heap and laying in a coma without nurishment of any kind for several days that he'd actually be stronger than he was in his prime before the coma?

And again, I'm not actually suggesting that DD's powers are synonamous with that of a Saiyin, I'm simply using them as an example of my way of thinking on the matter. I fully believe that DD WOULD have been stronger if he'd been allowed to regather his strength and I fully believe that he was gathering strength throughout the fight, I'm simply saying that we have no definitive proof that he'd actually reached his "prime" condition yet. His lack of protrusions suggest that he hadn't reached it when he first emerged, and I personally believe that Supes specifically noting that the Warrior hit harder supports his not actually reaching that point by the end.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Except we have a mod ruling that WWH can do what Savage can do..

Originally posted by Juntai
I think this is the weakest post I've ever seen from you man. It lacks anything of the substance that has made you a great debater. It's just a random grab of wild unsupported theories found nowhere in the comics.

Instead of tiptoeing around, just bz the man already!

Otherwise just say no and agree to disagree.

Unless he evolved to no longer need the sun for sustenance

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Unless he evolved to no longer need the sun for sustenance

Though that evolution could be due to him being incessantly attacked.

Which culminates in them shooting out in HP.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Though that evolution could be due to him being incessantly attacked.

Which culminates in them shooting out in HP.

Hey, if Jun doesn't want to do the BZ would you be interested in taking up DD's flag?

Aside from the fact that Doomsday was created on an ancient Krypton(which we know was under a red sun), he was also trapped FAR beneath Earth's surface for ~250,000 years in complete darkness, and was still able to regenerate from his 'death' at the hands of Radiant and break free of his Calatonian prison.

That said, Doomsday does not 'require' yellow solar radiation for sustenance in the same way that, say, Superman does.... Although it definitely nourishes him nonetheless when exposed to it.

Originally posted by Galan007
Aside from the fact that Doomsday was created on an ancient Krypton(which we know was under a red sun), he was also trapped FAR beneath Earth's surface for ~250,000 years in complete darkness, and was still able to regenerate from his 'death' at the hands of Radiant and break free of his Calatonian prison.

And check your PM lol

That said, Doomsday does not 'require' yellow solar radiation for sustenance in the same way that, say, Superman does.... Although it definitely nourishes him nonetheless when exposed to it.

And check your PM lol

Originally posted by darthgoober
What I'm suggesting is that his lack of protrusions suggest that he may not have FULLY regenerated when he emerged on Earth's surface. And then as his costume was torn away and he was exposed to solar energy his regeneration kept speeding up and bringing him closer to what he had been before.

And check your PM lol

After all, we know for a fact that the amount/size of his bony protrusions do not increase or decrease in accordance with the amount of solar energy he is(or is not) exposed to. They are simply a byproduct of his evolution.

Will do. 👆

Originally posted by Galan007
I think that is just a purposeful artistic depiction, tbh. The writers didn't want to give any hints as to what DD looked like until he was released from the body-suit.

After all, we know for a fact that the amount/size of his bony protrusions do not increase or decrease in accordance with the amount of solar energy he is(or is not) exposed to. They are simply a byproduct of his evolution.

Will do. 👆

http://s1180.photobucket.com/user/galanpics/media/dos_energy5.jpg.html

As you can see, we have a good idea of what DD looks like and the uncovered shoulder has a full protrusion shown. On the other shoulder though, there's still not so much as a bulge. There's no mystery being maintained by not showing a bulge or even the bone simply tearing through the suit while leaving the shoulder covered. Could it simply be a matter of the artists choice of depiction, absolutely. On the other hand my point is that I don't believe it can be definitively stated that DD was fully regenerated from his "death" and the lack of a bone protrusion can certainly be interpreted as supporting that fact. Logically, if he's fully regenerated he SHOULD have his full bone set by this point. Given things like this, being cut off from solar energy for 250,000 years, his lack of feats on the level of his highs from his flashback issues, and Supes specifically commenting that the Warrior hit him harder than DD did I believe that there's plenty of evidence to suggest that hadn't quite reached the level of power in this arc than he had shown in the flashbacks. I'm not even suggesting that he was DEFINATELY less powerful, I'm just pointing out that it can't be said that he was DEFINATELY equal to what he was before, let alone more powerful.

I mean most assume that Molecule Man was less powerful against Sentry based simply on his lack of universal/multiversal feats in the story, and it's not like DD was actually busting out feats on the level of taking on a Guardian during DOS. And that's not even taking into consideration the potential amp the Guardian theorized he received from the ring. All things considered I believe it makes a lot more sense to consider his showings to be totally arc dependent from DOS because there's just too much ambiguity and inconsistencies surrounding that particular event. We have a policy against pushing WBH and HOTM Hulk levels for WWH even if the thread stipulates that he's going all out and even though it was made clear in those arcs that WWH was actually holding back. I think DOS DD should be considered a stand alone depiction expect for SPECIFIC rectons of the event like DC expanding the collateral damage done from shattering windows via punch induced shockwaves to seismic tremors and natural disasters. And even that's actually giving him more leeway than we give Hulk because we don't allow rectons to WWH's true level of power in debates.

Originally posted by Galan007
I think that is just a purposeful artistic depiction, tbh. The writers didn't want to give any hints as to what DD looked like until he was released from the body-suit.

After all, we know for a fact that the amount/size of his bony protrusions do not increase or decrease in accordance with the amount of solar energy he is(or is not) exposed to. They are simply a byproduct of his evolution.

Will do. 👆

It also happened with the one that was spliced with Kryptonian DNA after Imperiex war.. He was in a containment suit too, and looked like a smooth skinned muscled brute, then a couple panels later was a giant hulking monster. Even showed he could retract or extend his claws.

Originally posted by Juntai
That's exactly what it was. It was a tool for a slow reveal.

It also happened with the one that was spliced with Kryptonian DNA after Imperiex war.. He was in a containment suit too, and looked like a smooth skinned muscled brute, then a couple panels later was a giant hulking monster. Even showed he could retract or extend his claws.