DOS Doomsday vs Thor

Originally posted by DarkSaint85

This infant, not native to this world of yours....

DD was taken from somewhere else. And by referring to Krypton as 'yours' (when speaking to the Kryp scientists), it is explicitly NOT of the same stock as the Kryp settlers.

Originally posted by darthgoober
A valid idea, but then again are we really sure he's saying that the infant isn't of their native world rather the world they're conducting the experiment on? Personally I think the idea that the infant ended up being solar powered similar to the way Kryptonians would be an awful big coincidence if it was just taken off some random planet.

The world they conducted the experiments on was Krypton (Waverider's words to Supes).

The work that Bertie did, 'stimulated that planet's interest in genetics' (Supes' words to Wavey).

He was talking to Kryptonians, telling them that he was not native to this world (i.e. the one they were standing on, Krypton).

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
The world they conducted the experiments on was Krypton (Waverider's words to Supes).

The work that Bertie did, 'stimulated that planet's interest in genetics' (Supes' words to Wavey).

He was talking to Kryptonians, telling them that he was not native to [b]this world (i.e. the one they were standing on, Krypton). [/B]

I love you blatantly and outright ignore evidence to try to push your bullshit agenda.

You've gone very deep into the area of trolling now.

We actually have several examples of verifiable proof of him dying and being stronger when he comes back. After the Radiant, After the Guardian, after Superman. All who pushed him to the limit of his power and then used a final blow to put him down.

He evolves, and comes back stronger than before. It is the basis of his stories. it is the nature of his character. It is written in his bio as the source of his power.

We also have several examples of him not being "all out" all the time.
From his encounter with the GL, where he got challenged and amped it up until he won.
To walking over GLs until encounter a Guardian and ramping it up he was taken to his limit and stopped. A continious ramping of power over the course of the story.
From his casually walking over JLA members as if they were insects, and then encountering Superman, and ramping it up the entire fight until he hit his limit and Superman punched him to death in the middle of town. A continuous ramping of his power until he was ended. And then came back stronger in H/P. So strong only Entropy could stop him.

You're also still trying to push this bones and sunlight shit as evidence.

Doomsday's power is not linked to his bones, nor is it linked to the sun.

I have given on panel and bio examples of sun being said to be his sustenance , and his actual power being listed as separate from this idea. That his power and strength is specifically said to be derived from evolution and rage. I haven't seen any evidence that Doomsday gains power from the Photonucleic Effect like Kryptonians do.

Conversely we also saw later down the road, after his death to Imperiex Doomsday actually WAS spliced with Kryptonian DNA to rebuild him, and gained weakness to Kryptonite until he evolved passed it. This further suggests, beyond the fact he wasn't from Krypton at all, that the common Kryptonian attributes were not part of him already.

I have also given examples of his bones being grown at will. Which is exactly what was done when he was still underground punching at the wall. Or Superman remarking his bones grew in Hunter/Prey. Or using them as projectile weapons in Hunter/Prey.

Every piece of information available to Doomsday's story fits into this model.

On the flip side, you have zero evidence to support your agenda you keep pushing that he was somehow weaker. That he doesn't ever hold back. That his bones are identifiers of his power.

I mean literally nothing you have tried to use supports you while you sit here and ignore the facts and scans.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Right, but thre were no actual native born "Kryptonians" at that point because the world was too inhospitable. The people there weren't actually "Kryptonians" yet because they weren't natives to the planet. So a baby drawn/created from the same stock as the settlers would still simultaneously of the same species yet not of that world. Like bringing a baby from Earth to a human scientific colony on Mars.

But, as he said, it was THIS world of YOURS. Bertie arrived, and there's no mention that the Kryps were a colony from somewhere else. You're saying there were no native born Kryps?

'The planet's NATIVES eventually found Bertron's destroyed lab, and took his genetic research for their own use'.

Bertron was not a native, and wanted little contact with those who were

It was only THAT area of the planet which was inhospitable to life.

This area of the planet has winds so ferocious, temperatures so incredibly hot....

DD is not Kryptonian.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But, as he said, it was THIS world of YOURS. Bertie arrived, and there's no mention that the Kryps were a colony from somewhere else. You're saying there were no native born Kryps?

It was only THAT area of the planet which was inhospitable to life.

DD is not Kryptonian.

Originally posted by Juntai
I love you blatantly and outright ignore evidence to try to push your bullshit agenda.

You've gone very deep into the area of trolling now.

We actually have several examples of verifiable proof of him dying and being stronger when he comes back. After the Radiant, After the Guardian, after Superman. All who pushed him to the limit of his power and then used a final blow to put him down.

He evolves, and comes back stronger than before. It is the basis of his stories. it is the nature of his character. It is written in his bio as the source of his power.

We also have several examples of him not being "all out" all the time.
From his encounter with the GL, where he got challenged and amped it up until he won.
To walking over GLs until encounter a Guardian and ramping it up he was taken to his limit and stopped. A continious ramping of power over the course of the story.
From his casually walking over JLA members as if they were insects, and then encountering Superman, and ramping it up the entire fight until he hit his limit and Superman punched him to death in the middle of town. A continuous ramping of his power until he was ended. And then came back stronger in H/P. So strong only Entropy could stop him.

You're also still trying to push this bones and sunlight shit as evidence.

Doomsday's power is not linked to his bones, nor is it linked to the sun.

I have given on panel and bio examples of sun being said to be his sustenance , and his actual power being listed as separate from this idea. That his power and strength is specifically said to be derived from evolution and rage. I haven't seen any evidence that Doomsday gains power from the Photonucleic Effect like Kryptonians do.

Conversely we also saw later down the road, after his death to Imperiex Doomsday actually WAS spliced with Kryptonian DNA to rebuild him, and gained weakness to Kryptonite until he evolved passed it. This further suggests, beyond the fact he wasn't from Krypton at all, that the common Kryptonian attributes were not part of him already.

I have also given examples of his bones being grown at will. Which is exactly what was done when he was still underground punching at the wall. Or Superman remarking his bones grew in Hunter/Prey. Or using them as projectile weapons in Hunter/Prey.

Every piece of information available to Doomsday's story fits into this model.

On the flip side, you have zero evidence to support your agenda you keep pushing that he was somehow weaker. That he doesn't ever hold back. That his bones are identifiers of his power.

I mean literally nothing you have tried to use supports you while you sit here and ignore the facts and scans.

Since when is simply disagreeing with someone trolling? I'm not ignoring what you're putting forth, I'm just acknowledging things that you reject in regards to my interpretation.

Tell you what, I think we both know that we can go back and forth rehashing these same points until one or both of us gets sick of repeating ourselves and simply stops talking about it at this juncture. And I think that we both know that even if that happens, this exact same arguement is going to crop up again the next time someone starts referencing the Guardian fight for DOS DD because now that I've opened this Pandora's Box there are going to be others even beyond myself that are going to run with it. So here's what I propose... You and I have a very special Battlezone on the topic. Not a standard Battlezone where the only "prize" is bragging rights for the voctor, one where the outcome actually affects things going forward. There'll be 2 questions on the table...

1. Are DD's flashback arcs valid to use in threads involving DOS DD.

2. Is the answer to question 1 so definitive that attempting to argue to the contrary in future threads a form of trolling and therefor against the rules.

This will mean that there are 3 possible outcomes, ALL of which will lead to more productive debates on the topic. The first, is an absolute victory for you which means you and others will never have to hear the kinds of arguments that I'm making again. The second, is an absolute victory for me which will mean that I and others will never have to deal with stuff like the Guardian fight in threads involving DOS DD again. And the third, is acknowledgment that both sides have valid points that are open to debate. This won't really stop future arguments, but it will curtail the dismissing of potentially valid arguments as trolling and force people to acknowledge the other side even if they disagree which means that the debates can actually move forward rather than stalling out when one side doesn't approve of what's being said.

Since forum policy/standards are on the line, we can ask Pr, Newjak, and Digi to be the judges since all three are impartial and well versed in forum rules and standards.

If you're not interested I extend the invitation to others. I'm willing to take on virtually any knowledgeable Supes/DD fan, but it's probably best that the other side not be abhi because the mess our previous Battlezone devolved into will likely prevent the judges from going along with the whole thing.

But the root of the argument, is that flashback scenes are invalid because DoS DD was weaker than in the flashbacks, due to him being Kryptonian and thus, starved of sunlight for many many years.

When in fact, he's not Kryp at all.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But, as he said, it was THIS world of YOURS. Bertie arrived, and there's no mention that the Kryps were a colony from somewhere else. You're saying there were no native born Kryps?

It was only THAT area of the planet which was inhospitable to life.

DD is not Kryptonian.

Nice, I missed that stuff. Still, as I said I consider it to be quite a coincidence that the baby developed the solar powered traits of kryptonians without being a kryptonian himself. Entirely possible because everyone knows that huge coincidences like that happen all the time in comics. Not to mention the fact that being forced to evolve on Krypton could be part of what caused him to evolve that similar trait.

However, Bertron himself wasn't a native as you pointed out. And DD basically sees Supes as Betron BECAUSE Supes is a Kryptonian. This would seem to suggest that even though Betron isn't from Krypton, he's still basically made of the same stock. Like maybe the colonization had been going on successfully for a few generations, but they were still pretty much the same as what they had been before.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But the root of the argument, is that flashback scenes are invalid because DoS DD was weaker than in the flashbacks, due to him being Kryptonian and thus, starved of sunlight for many many years.

When in fact, he's not Kryp at all.

The answer to question is that it's absolutely usable. It's the characters on panel history.
The answer to question 2, is that, yes, the answer to question one is concrete. It's the characters on panel history.

Furthermore, I could agree that both sides have valid points in the event you actually provided any valid points. Any points you have tried to make are directly refuted by on panel evidence, which I have provided.

Outside of that, you have simply been ignoring and trolling.

Originally posted by darthgoober
h1 I don't know who told you that you're the authority on what logic is allowed to be used on KMC, but whoever it was... lied to you. Logical deduction is as valid a tool as any.

The panel clearly shows DD with full protrusions before and after death. The panel shows him being clothed appearing exactly the way he did at the beginning of DOS. His protrusions didn't just disappear without explanation. That's not how storytelling goes.

So immediately after being clothed DD protrusions disappeared. How? That makes no sense. There is no explanation of them going away. The only thing that was said is that they clothed him TO PREVENT HIS SOUL FROM ESCAPING. There was no mention of his protrusions disappearing. The writer had no intentions on the protrusions disappearing all of a sudden. Otherwise he would have explained why or alluded to it.

Originally posted by Juntai
The answer to question is that it's absolutely usable. It's the characters on panel history.
The answer to question 2, is that, yes, the answer to question one is concrete. It's the characters on panel history.

Furthermore, I could agree that both sides have valid points in the event you actually provided any valid points. Any points you have tried to make are directly refuted by on panel evidence, which I have provided.

Outside of that, you have simply been ignoring and trolling.

But are you accepting my proposal?

Originally posted by darthgoober
Nice, I missed that stuff. Still, as I said I consider it to be quite a coincidence that the baby developed the solar powered traits of kryptonians without being a kryptonian himself. Entirely possible because everyone knows that huge coincidences like that happen all the time in comics. Not to mention the fact that being forced to evolve on Krypton is part of what caused him to evolve that similar trait.

However, Bertron himself wasn't a native as you pointed out. And DD basically sees Supes as Betron BECAUSE Supes is a Kryptonian. This would seem to suggest that even though Betron isn't from Krypton, he's still basically made of the same stock. Like maybe the colonization had been going on successfully for a few generations, but they were still pretty much the same as what they had been before.

He didn't evolve the traits, though. He has no HV or flight (which, would make him more efficient at killing).

I don't understand, now. The Kryps are native to the planet, which was Krypton. Bertie specifically says the baby was NOT native to the planet (which was Krypton).

And you're taking suggestions, over....actual statements? Where are you getting that it was a colony, from another planet (like Mars to Earth)?

Originally posted by darthgoober
His being a solar powered being doesn't necessarily have to come from his being Kryptonian though. It's established on panel independantly from his place of origin. I just interpreted it as him basically being Kryptonian because it was the most obvious explanation.

Plants also take sustenance from the sun. Bertie could have just tinkered with the DNA because sunlight is readily available around the universe, and always gives life.

He's not Kryptonian

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
He didn't evolve the traits, though. He has no HV or flight (which, would make him more efficient at killing).

I don't understand, now. The Kryps are native to the planet, which was Krypton. Bertie specifically says the baby was NOT native to the planet (which was Krypton).

And you're taking suggestions, over....actual statements? Where are you getting that it was a colony, from another planet (like Mars to Earth)?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Plants also take sustenance from the sun. Bertie could have just tinkered with the DNA because sunlight is readily available around the universe, and always gives life.

I was never saying he's identical to a Kryptonian, you can see that just by looking at the guy. When you get right down to it I'm not even saying that the native kryptonians BACK THEN were identical to those of Supes's era... I mean there had been thousands of years between them and I don't doubt that some evolution had occured.

But again, DD basically sees Supes as Betron(who wasn't from Krypton) so it seems logical that at the very least there's probably some common ancestry. I'm not saying that he's definitively of "Kryptonian stock" anymore, as I already acknowledged I missed those things you pointed out in your previous post. But even my stance that he was basically Kryptonian was simply one more potential indicator of what I'm talking about. He feeds on solar energy whether he's Kryptonian or not.

And while it's not really relevant to the convo, I'd personally say it makes more sense for his solar powered nature to be a result of his forced evolution on Krypton than through direct genetic tampering from Betron even if he doesn't share a common ancestor(which still makes more sense than not to me).

Originally posted by darthgoober
I'm not saying that he's definitively of "Kryptonian stock" anymore

That's pretty much all we need.

As Supes then incredulously asks Wavey, how did he come back, Wavey said that his body regenerates itself and comes back STRONGER than before. This is said in the panel immediately after Wavey finishes telling his story of how DD came to Earth.

That means, well....when he came back to life, he was stronger than before.

By looking at the old scans, was it ever revealed who wrapped Doomsday up and placed him on earth?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
That's pretty much all we need.

As Supes then incredulously asks Wavey, how did he come back, Wavey said that his body regenerates itself and comes back STRONGER than before. This is said in the panel immediately after Wavey finishes telling his story of how DD came to Earth.

That means, well....when he came back to life, he was stronger than before.

Just BZ him already.