Where Is The Line Drawn?

Started by DarthAnt665 pages

Originally posted by SunRazer
[B]For that matter, which sources refer to RotJ Palpatine as a Sith? [B]

I imagine a lot of Scholastic sources.

With the galaxy now ripe for conquest, the Emperor has become the most powerful Sith Lord of all and a master of the Dark Side of the Force, ordering the extermination of the Jedi Order with the aid of his apprentice, the deadly Darth Vader.

From the Legends Epic Collection, would be one.

In regards to DE though, this was very likely because Palpatine hadn't been established as a Sith Lord yet. I don't think this is necessarily proof he abandoned the moniker.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
So... you agree?
To what? The fact that no source post-ROTJ describes Palpatine as the most powerful dark sider, or otherwise?

Ah, yes. That quote.

As I said, the definition of "Sith" was not yet founded at the point DE was written. But at this point, we may never get actual confirmation that he's a Sith.

In any case, this topic does remind me that I don't agree with the extent of the disparity between the Ones and Palpatine/Luke Skywalker that many people seem to believe in.

Ableoth's "dozen times Force strength" quote is almost certainly hyperbole to me, to be honest.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
To what? The fact that no source post-ROTJ describes Palpatine as the most powerful dark sider, or otherwise?

DE Endnotes?

That's in reference to RotJ. All of the ones from the DE Endnotes about Palpatine being the most powerful dark sider are referring to RotJ, in fact. In which case the Son's quote applies and retcons them.

Except the one about taming the dark side (I can't remember if it is), but the Son is literally the personification of the dark side, so he's exempt from the quote as well.

So yeah, it's all good actually 🙂

Not that clear cut. Not sure if it retcons DE too. Can you go backward?

Well, DE Palpatine has no new quotes of supremacy amongst dark side wielders. They're from RotJ, by which time we know the Son to be more powerful than Palpatine. In other words, DE Palpatine has the potential to surpass the Son (as in you can make the argument freely) but he's certainly not factually superior or anything of the sort.

And chances are, people won't be making that argument, although as I said before, I don't believe the gap is nearly as big as most people make out.

Confirmation that DE Palpatine is still a Sith Lord tbh, as he was still seeking out a Sith apprentice:

Taken from Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force

It has been six years since the Battle of Endor. As leader of my Dark Side Adepts, Military Executor Sedriss has been most loyal, and is commended for reviving me here on Byss. But for all his usefulness, Sedriss is only a moderate Force-sensitive, a capable errand boy but hardly the stuff of a Sith apprentice. No, it is only appropriate that my next apprentice must be someone with more unique qualities.

It must be Luke Skywalker or his kin.

Still within the domain of the Sith Lords. 🙂

Originally posted by SunRazer
Ableoth's "dozen times Force strength" quote is almost certainly hyperbole to me, to be honest.

Luke Skywalker felt like that while he was under the chokehold of Abeloth. So definitely questionable.

@Beni - Good job.

@Legend - Yeah, and if it had been "twelve times" I'd be less inclined to call it hyperbole. "Dozen" just sounds too easy for hyperbole, tbh...

And of course, if Abeloth really were a dozen times more powerful, she'd never be having this much issue with Luke.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Except the one about taming the dark side (I can't remember if it is), but the Son is literally the personification of the dark side, so he's exempt from the quote as well.
It says he succeeded in taming the dark side "where all others had failed" but it's helixed as from Palpatine's own point of view. Naturally, we have no reason to believe he's even aware of the Son, or Abeloth's existence.

Right, so we've tied up that loose end. Is there really anything else? Just RotS Palpatine > Abeloth, but we can dismiss that on account of reason.

Abeloth being more powerful than human comprehension and possibly more powerful than the Son are good starting points to disprove the idea of RotS Palpatine > Abeloth.

You're still thinking on a mortal scale, like Vader or Palpatine. Think bigger, like a storm or a tide. Like a living Force volcano.

-Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse

I found it on DMB's RT. Seems to be a character opinion, but it's at least something. She also has a ton more accolades putting her above DE Palpatine, although this is the only one that states it directly.

That's Mara, IIRC, so it's valid. Thanks for the reminder.

It's enough to retcon the Palpatine quote. Remember that character statements are merely fallible, not inherently unreliable or inaccurate. They can still retcon (ie. Yoda's commentary on Dooku's powers in Yoda: Dark Rendezvous).

There's also Luke musing Abeloth is more powerful than he can comprehend, using the Force in a magnitude he never hasn't, etc., which all indirectly state she's beyond DE Palpatine.

Yeah, that's what I was getting at before.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Right, so we've tied up that loose end. Is there really anything else? Just RotS Palpatine > Abeloth, but we can dismiss that on account of reason.

Abeloth being more powerful than human comprehension and possibly more powerful than the Son are good starting points to disprove the idea of RotS Palpatine > Abeloth.

Well Abeloth has been depicted as humbling both the Son and Daughter simultaneously, and logically speaking anyone who drank from the Font of Power as the Son did, should move beyond the realm of the Sith Lords, let alone the Font of Knowledge as well.

Indeed. I thought I was nearly alone on that, though, because when I came over here people kept citing the Son & Daughter and the Killiks re-imprisoning her over the course of the galaxy's history.

I mean, granted, the reliability of the source that shows Abeloth humbling both the Son and Daughter is definitely questionable. But she both drank from the Font of Power and bathed into the Pool of Knowledge. Look at how powerful Taalon became from falling into the Pool, and Abeloth drank from the Font as well.

As far as I'm concerned, that amounts to logical grounds capable of dismissing Palpatine's accolade.

Quite, there is at the very least every reason to believe Abeloth is within the Son's domain of ability, if not above. 👆