Originally posted by Beniboybling
The accolade is made at the point of Valkorion's intial death, by which point we know he is less powerful in the Force than Arcann. So evidently its not referring to Force ability exclusively, or at all.
Originally posted by darthbane77
A single, vague, accolade does not overwrite the multitude of feats placing Revan above the Outlander.
I am not among those members who ignore greater realities and consider a single accolade in an outdated source as gospel.
The accolade in question here is from BioWare (not a secondary source) and is a new revelation (earlier developments covered). It reveals where the Outlander stands in the grand scheme of things. And it does not seems to be time-specific.
We have no choice but to believe that the Outlander became more powerful than Revan at some point. And this does not seems to be far-fetched assumption because the Outlander could handle any foe [1 on 1] barring Valkorion since Chapter 12 of Knights of the Fallen Empire.
Originally posted by darthbane77
Revan was implied to be no match for Vitiate by people who had never experienced Vitiate's full strength. Revan was able to contend with Vitiate in their fight, and solidly at that when all the circumstances of the fight are considered. Couple that with the quotes stating that Revan came close to killing Vitiate, and you have a case implying that Revan was more of a match for Vitiate than most would believe. Those feats stand head and shoulders above the opinions of people who have never experienced Vitiate's full potency.
Don't get me wrong! Revan is immensely powerful and I rank him really high. However, if the Outlander is capable of defeating Vaylin, he is most likely stronger than Revan.
Originally posted by darthbane77
He managed to contend with her with the help of Arcann and Senya. Had the 'lander been alone in that fight, you would have a case to make. As it stands, you don't.I'm not saying the 'lander isn't incredibly powerful, I have him placed somewhat solidly over ROTJ Vader based on his feats. But he has nothing to suggest superiority to Revan.
Originally posted by GeistaltTrue, very true. Which is why I rank the 'lander so high (not many characters I rank higher than Vader in the grand scheme of things.) I just don't hold him as highly as people on the same level as Revan, Exar Kun, etc.
Fair enough. But keep in mind that Vaylin also relied on external help. And that the Outlander was ultimately unaffected by all the TK that she could bring to bear.
Originally posted by Tondemonai
Plagueis, very close fight. Only reason I say that is HoTlander's hobby is tanking attacks from vastly superior Force users (though he would get overwhelmed if Plagueis maintained a long enough assault)
Not seeing how the Outlander tanking hits would make it any closer, just more prolonged. But then again, I don't see why Plagueis wouldn't just do an Arcann and TK the Outlander before impaling them on his blade. That should end the fight rather quickly. 🙂
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
My friend,I am not among those members who ignore greater realities and consider a single accolade in an outdated source as gospel.
The accolade in question here is from BioWare (not a secondary source) and is a new revelation (earlier developments covered). It reveals where the Outlander stands in the grand scheme of things. And it does not seems to be time-specific.
We have no choice but to believe that the Outlander became more powerful than Revan at some point. And this does not seems to be far-fetched assumption because the Outlander could handle any foe [1 on 1] barring Valkorion since Chapter 12 of Knights of the Fallen Empire.
Darth Marr simply stated that Vitiate would eliminate Revan and proceed to consume others as well. The whole point of Shadow of Revan expansion is that Revan was committing a huge blunder by awakening Vitiate.
Don't get me wrong! Revan is immensely powerful and I rank him really high. However, if the Outlander is capable of defeating Vaylin, he is most likely stronger than Revan.
When Vaylin unleashed the Force Maelstrom, she swiftly overwhelmed Senya and Arcann with it but the Outlander was able to withstand her power and managed to impale her right through it. That is sufficient proof.
The quote also never mentions power in the Force, it could very likely be referring to political/military power, which would be accurate because nobody resisted Valkorion on a military front before. That would also make the most sense, given that the only thing even slightly indicating Outlander>Revan, is that quote, nothing else. As such, I defer to the larger quantity of feats displayed by Revan, some of which have more power behind them than anything the 'lander has ever achieved. As I said before, feats>accolades, and the 'lander has no feats to suggest superiority to Revan. Now, I don't go strictly by feats, accolades must be considered as well, but the accolade in question is contradicted by feats. So, as a result of that, the quote is either moot and can be discounted, or (more likely) it simply doesn't mean what you think it means.
That doesn't indicate superiority to Revan. That indicates superiority to the people the 'lander fought in KOTET (barring Valkorion obviously.) So the logic you're using there doesn't work, as none of the people the 'lander faced in KOTET are as powerful as Revan (again barring Valkorion.)
And I agree with that assessment, to an extent. The concept of calling Vitiate back being a mistake on Revan's part, I agree with. The statements made by Marr, and others, are simply their opinions however. Opinions that aren't really backed by anything, save for the stories and hype the Empire has put behind Vitiate. The fact that Revan, even though he lost, legitimately challenged Vitiate, by itself puts Revan beyond any characters seen in KOTET, with the exception of Valkorion himself. But a quote that may or may not mean something, and the opinions of people who never really saw Vitiate's full power, are not sufficient evidence to make the claim that the Outlander is superior to Revan. That argument is flimsy at best.
And I might agree, if Vaylin was, herself, as powerful or more powerful than Revan; but she isn't.
Which is immensely impressive. But not as impressive as ragdolling several members of either strike team, and nearly matching both teams in combat. Along with Revan Reborn being able to contend admirably with Vitiate, despite being weakened by Dromund Kaas' DS Nexus,and getting over a few years worth of torture. Both of those feats eclipse anything that Vaylin has done.
Originally posted by NephthysThat's the only thing that makes sense though. It can't mean actual power in the Force, as Revan has superior showings, contradicting the single quote.
Pretty sure it wasn't meant in a military or political sense since the Outlander had just been captured and was in Zakuul's custody at the time.
Well if the Outlander was his strongest political opponent in spite of not being a politician (except Nox, who isn't even a good one), I'd be impressed. Same goes for a guy with no military, who just got owned by Zakuul and captured and is about to be frozen in carbonite while completely helpless, being his strongest military opposition.
Combat power is the obvious explanation.
Originally posted by NephthysThe entire story of KOTFE and KOTET are about the Outlander assembling a military. Military power is an easy explanation. And, as I've said several times, the 'lander has no feats to suggests superiority to Revan, and accolades only go so far on their own.
Well if the Outlander was his strongest political opponent in spite of not being a politician (except Nox, who isn't even a good one), I'd be impressed. Same goes for a guy with no military, who just got owned by Zakuul and captured and is about to be frozen in carbonite while completely helpless, being his strongest military opposition.Combat power is the obvious explanation.
Originally posted by darthbane77
The quote also never mentions power in the Force, it could very likely be referring to political/military power, which would be accurate because nobody resisted Valkorion on a military front before.
Darth Plagueis's accolade, for example, promotes him as the most powerful Sith Lord in history on the basis of his specialization in the Midichlorian Manipulation talent. Context-specific in short and from a secondary source on top of that. Therefore, absolutely subjective.
We also have quotes for Palpatine that consider his political standing along-with his powers for promoting him as the most powerful Sith Lord in history.
Now, in case of the Outlander, this is what we have for him:
You are the Outlander, a veteran of the Great Galactic War and the commander of a powerful team of hand-picked allies. Choose the light side and take the heroic path to saving the galaxy or channel the dark side and take control for your personal gain. You decide who will live, who will die...and who will rule the galaxy. It is your destiny!
The Outlander is not a commander of a vast army or something like that. He has assembled a Team of talented individuals much like Revan during the events of KoTOR and Jedi Exile during the events of KoTOR II. This is what he brought to bear against Valkorion.
I don't recall the Outlander commanding a vast fleet and getting captured in a massive battle during Chapter 1 of Knights of the Fallen Empire. That would be Darth Marr but even he was cutting a swath through enemy positions at personal capacity.
So what should we make of it?
You don't have to adhere to the dictums imposed by the PT Brigade in relation to strength of characters like Revan, the Outlander, Arcann, Thexan, Senya, Vaylin and Valkorion. These guys are not Jedi and/or Sith and have established their own unique identity in the long-term. Their is a significant tension between what these guys can do and where they should stand in the grand scheme of things.
Revan's performance on Yavin IV implies strength on the level of Palpatine, if not higher, to be honest.
Anyways, the Outlander have been established as a peer of Revan in strength at minimum. It is also possible that the Outlander surpassed Revan at some point since he was strong enough to challenge Vaylin [1 on 1].
So we have something like this:
1. Valkorion
2. The Outlander (prime); Vaylin (unchained)
3. Revan (Shadow of Revan)
4. Arcann; Revan (Reborn)
5. Thexan
6. Senya; Lana Beniko
Originally posted by darthbane77
That would also make the most sense, given that the only thing even slightly indicating Outlander>Revan, is that quote, nothing else. As such, I defer to the larger quantity of feats displayed by Revan, some of which have more power behind them than anything the 'lander has ever achieved. As I said before, feats>accolades, and the 'lander has no feats to suggest superiority to Revan. Now, I don't go strictly by feats, accolades must be considered as well, but the accolade in question is contradicted by feats. So, as a result of that, the quote is either moot and can be discounted, or (more likely) it simply doesn't mean what you think it means.That doesn't indicate superiority to Revan. That indicates superiority to the people the 'lander fought in KOTET (barring Valkorion obviously.) So the logic you're using there doesn't work, as none of the people the 'lander faced in KOTET are as powerful as Revan (again barring Valkorion.)
Originally posted by darthbane77
And I agree with that assessment, to an extent. The concept of calling Vitiate back being a mistake on Revan's part, I agree with. The statements made by Marr, and others, are simply their opinions however. Opinions that aren't really backed by anything, save for the stories and hype the Empire has put behind Vitiate. The fact that Revan, even though he lost, legitimately challenged Vitiate, by itself puts Revan beyond any characters seen in KOTET, with the exception of Valkorion himself. But a quote that may or may not mean something, and the opinions of people who never really saw Vitiate's full power, are not sufficient evidence to make the claim that the Outlander is superior to Revan. That argument is flimsy at best.
Originally posted by darthbane77
And I might agree, if Vaylin was, herself, as powerful or more powerful than Revan; but she isn't.
She destroyed a massive structure on Nathema with a thought from space. Perhaps more because she said that Nathema would look different after what she did to it.
Originally posted by darthbane77
Which is immensely impressive. But not as impressive as ragdolling several members of either strike team, and nearly matching both teams in combat. Along with Revan Reborn being able to contend admirably with Vitiate, despite being weakened by Dromund Kaas' DS Nexus,and getting over a few years worth of torture. Both of those feats eclipse anything that Vaylin has done.
And do not forget that Vitiate became more powerful with passage of time. Valkorion is his strongest incarnation and a non-Sith at that.