Originally posted by krisblazeThis was basically my thinking... in the world of X-Men, there's not much rationale behind Psylocke's fighting style or whole ninja aesthetic besides "well, she's a Jedi"
Psylocke and Vader are actually really similar.They can predict their opponents moves. Have an undefined degree of TK that is either dominant or barely used. They both tend towards swordfighting and have some serious telepathy.
So many odd showings.
In her fight with Brian he couldn't touch her because she could predict his every move.
Then again in x-treme x-men Rogue couldn't touch her because Betsy was using TK to slow her down, even though she had Quicksilvers speed. And Rogue was getting a REAL push around that time too.
i think this scan gives a great indication of how powerful her tk abilities became:
http://cs320824.vk.me/v320824451/3349/Vt4YximXN-Y.jpg
notice the small phoenix over rachel's eye. in that incarnation, rachel was powerful enough to create a BLACK HOLE through teke alone. for her to say betsy was more powerful is.....very whacked.
this is a shared feat but i still think it was a good one:
http://cs320824.vk.me/v320824451/332b/0-QHqvEICH4.jpg
https://vk.com/topic-54593323_29422453?z=photo2000023831_327534848%2Fpost-54593323_72
https://vk.com/topic-54593323_29422453?z=photo2000023237_327831651%2Fpost-54593323_72
https://vk.com/topic-54593323_29422453?z=photo2000022954_327467275%2Fpost-54593323_72
someone had asked if the blade could cut metal:
https://vk.com/topic-54593323_29422453?z=photo2000023464_327101011%2Fpost-54593323_86
her katana is pretty awesome but she has manifested many different weapons including powerful bows with powerful arrows that might also give an advantage in this battle.
all that said, i'm still not sure where she is right now in marvel. :/
in the past she has been able to teleport as well, can fly at supersonic speed and with tk has been strong enough to beat sabertooth. with tk she has torn apart nimrod and even made herself invisible. she was completely immune to tp (even omega level tp'ers) for a while, has been said to be one of the 3 most powerful psi's in marvel, has matched and beaten logan in a fight and was trained by ogun.
all of these things have been a part of her character at some point, but some have gone by the wayside, it's just hard sometimes keeping track of what she can STILL do. she is cool--very cool--but like so many x-characters, too many fingers in the pot have made her a difficult character to consistently gauge unless you follow her quite closely. /shrug
Originally posted by krisblazeIirc, in her fight with Sabretooth, she was keeping up because she was amping her strength and speed with TK.
So many odd showings.In her fight with Brian he couldn't touch her because she could predict his every move.
Then again in x-treme x-men Rogue couldn't touch her because Betsy was using TK to slow her down, even though she had Quicksilvers speed. And Rogue was getting a REAL push around that time too.
I like Vader just as much as the next guy, but personally I think he's not half as skilled as some people like to think.
Mostly, he just stands there and waves his sword a bit. He lets his TP and telekinesis do the most work.
He's an expert in fighting Jedi and other force users, but that's about it. Those Marvel characters fight every week another completely different bad guy, some of them way more dangerous than Vader on his best day.
Originally posted by Kid KurdyYouTube video
I like Vader just as much as the next guy, but personally I think he's not half as skilled as some people like to think.Mostly, he just stands there and waves his sword a bit. He lets his TP and telekinesis do the most work.
He's an expert in fighting Jedi and other force users, but that's about it. Those Marvel characters fight every week another completely different bad guy, some of them way more dangerous than Vader on his best day.
in a blade battle it would be interesting. the force really helps a jedi--their skills seem more force-based, ie, intuitive, than actually learned/practiced. that's not to say they aren't skilled or don't train of course. i recall luke practicing with that droid blind-folded. he ended up blocking all the laser bolts easily, but his actions, while ridiculous and fast, were taken via the force. obviously betsy has learned a completely different way, but her own skills can be increased (at least the force of them) with her tk powers as well. vader isn't a 'ninja' obviously. i know for a fac he has fought some very agile opponents in the past, but psylocke might be a bit different. maybe. this is one of my favourite matches i've seen in the forum for quite a while. i keep going back and forth on a winner. lol
Originally posted by Galan007
deathslash mentioned a good deal of Legends feats in his post. However, Smurph's OP specifies post-Legends, thus the bulk of those feats aren't usable here(if you're unfamiliar, pre/post-Legends denotes a change in SW continuity.)Anyway, in Legends continuity Vader gesturely atomized a Storm Trooper beneath his armor:
http://i.imgur.com/fzpJ7N3.jpg
*But again: that showing isn't usable here.
Even though that showing isn't usable, Psylocke is definitely not capable of vaporizing someone. If Post-Legends Vader is anywhere near there, he'd out TK her. She probably caps out a little below Julian Keller level.
How's his TP and physical stats?
Originally posted by Smurph
This was basically my thinking... in the world of X-Men, there's not much rationale behind Psylocke's fighting style or whole ninja aesthetic besides "well, she's a Jedi"
Let Rachel finally just be the undisputed go-to TP/TK powerhouse.
Also, I'd like to add that Psylocke isn't that hard to keep up with. She's been a headlining character on multiple X-titles ever since her return, and usually has an explanation offered when her powers shift. A lot of the feats mentioned here were pre-death, or pre-Madelyn Pryor tampering, which aren't really usable. As a general rule, her TK showings pre-Remender could just be tossed out tbh.
Ever since then, she's been relatively the same. With 7 years of showings under our belts, we can peg her abilities pretty accurately. She's really, really high profile in the X-Books.
This isn't Husk, who can turn into Human Torch or some shit now.
ok, that's fair enough. so what do you think is current psylocke's best tk feat? that shared feat with rachel is in your current timeframe, no? is she currently the same as she was just before the reboot? that's the one that took out cassandra, isn't it? my thinking is she is a really hard character to gauge for anyone trying to get a handle on her career power-wise. if she is the same right now as she was just prior to the reboot then she's...pretty powerful and her tp alone should be enough to take vader down, no?
ok, so i looked back at a few books. you suggest she's been stable for 7 years or so. that would clearly include all the uncanny x-force stuff. so current betsy has that same level of tp and tk? so which of the feats i showed could actually be thrown out? the teleporting and immunity to telepaths, but i'm curious what else could be tossed if we go by x-force as a general guideline for the current version.
Originally posted by StyleTimeIn post-Legends continuity, Vader has scarce few TP feats under his belt. He can muck with his opponents' thoughts to an extent --use their own doubt/fear to his advantage, for example-- but he's certainly not 'mind-raping' anyone or w/e.
How's his TP and physical stats?
The armor significantly increases most of his physical attributes:
And he can further augment his strength via the Force.
problem with his mind tricks is that there are a number of people/creatures immune to his influence. jabba, cylo, most monsters it seems... but just because he can't affect someone's mind doesn't necessarily mean he would be easy pickings via tp. the feat where he overrode cylo's control shows the strength of will he has so she'd have a solid edge there, but his defenses are still potent i'd imagine.
Exactly. 👆
As is the case with most noteworthy force-users, I imagine that it would take quite an uber telepath to outright mind-rape Vader. As you mentioned: his mind/will is extremely formidable -- even by Jedi/Sith standards.
Not saying Psy can't do it(again, I have no clue), but my only question to that would be: is it in character for her to attempt mind-phuckery right from the outset?
Originally posted by leonidas
ok, that's fair enough. so what do you think is current psylocke's best tk feat? that shared feat with rachel is in your current timeframe, no? is she currently the same as she was just before the reboot? that's the one that took out cassandra, isn't it? my thinking is she is a really hard character to gauge for anyone trying to get a handle on her career power-wise. if she is the same right now as she was just prior to the reboot then she's...pretty powerful and her tp alone should be enough to take vader down, no?
https://postimg.org/image/nk3aq5j1j/
https://postimg.org/image/oaw0vxlev/
https://postimg.org/image/6yvoahrxj/
https://postimg.org/image/odfwirp2f/
During the showdown with the Sisterhood, Dazzler blasts half of body-swapped Betsy's face off, which gave Betsy enough to control to fight the control off. I didn't post her mental battle with herself.
https://postimg.org/image/a78xjpbpx/
https://postimg.org/image/kvcoijlp1/
https://postimg.org/image/mhloaq7r7/
Betsy wins the psychic fight, returns to her body. She celebrates with Dazzler.
https://postimg.org/image/za9sanjcz/
https://postimg.org/image/7o70pz003/
Later, she reveals her telepathy is back.
https://postimg.org/image/7cpkd7jk3/
From here she was still strong TK, weak TP, until Remender took away the TK completely while upgrading her TP. Subsequent writers brought it back, but it's never been as strong as it was during your Claremont-era scan. Some believe it's because she can't use one power without weakening the other, and there is some justification for that.
https://postimg.org/image/w429b6u9x/
So, when AoA Jean upgraded her TP to Omega level, it is reasonable that her TK took a nose dive. If you want to go that route anyway. I don't necessarily follow it but it does explain things well.
Yes, she is the same as the one that beat Cassandra, albeit with help. Her best TK feat currently is hard to gauge. She rips big metal doors off the hinges and hadoukens Fantomex into walls. Nothing crazy.
https://postimg.org/image/8pbl24kpf/
https://postimg.org/image/wucaju503/
Originally posted by leonidas
ok, so i looked back at a few books. you suggest she's been stable for 7 years or so. that would clearly include all the uncanny x-force stuff. so current betsy has that same level of tp and tk? so which of the feats i showed could actually be thrown out? the teleporting and immunity to telepaths, but i'm curious what else could be tossed if we go by x-force as a general guideline for the current version.
Yes, I believe she is still at the same TP/TK level as that Remender/post-Remender period. Flightless, but can still toss out TK waves at people.
https://postimg.org/image/tkr7dyisf/
Oh, and keep in my mind, I'm not saying she loses. Just sounded like Vader might have stronger TK. I'm open to other arguments though.
Originally posted by Galan007
Exactly. 👆As is the case with most noteworthy force-users, I imagine that it would take quite an uber telepath to outright mind-rape Vader. As you mentioned: his mind/will is extremely formidable -- even by Jedi/Sith standards.
Not saying Psy can't do it(again, I have no clue), but my only question to that would be: is it in character for her to attempt mind-phuckery right from the outset?
She wouldn't try to put him to sleep right away, but she is prone to illusion casting and such while in melee. If his defense is strong enough, he might fight through it.
