Ranking the Ancient Sith

Originally posted by SunRazer
Seems like Maul's anguish at being struck down would be more likely to leave behind a remainder than him passing an area. That's also Canon, not Legends.

That being said, there are places that simply reflect Force energy and bypassers leave behind impressions.

Sure, Kressh's Tomb had artifacts amping the potency of his life force and what not, but it was still infinitely more powerful than Maul's stain on Naboo.

On the other hand, there is simply less of a precedent for Maul's feat than Kressh's, which is replicated in varying forms by every Sith tomb ever.

EDIT: And frankly, the fact that the tombs of Ragnos, Pall, Hord etc. failed to be similarly potent, suggests to me this was more due to the nature of the tomb itself, if anything.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Kressh contorting giant statues with a clenched fist and being so powerful that his Tomb (which his life force still haunts per the Prima Guide) literally prevents people who aren't strong enough in the Force (including, for instance, Visas) from even setting foot inside. Note that you can play dark side and Visas can be amped by Korriban and still not be strong enough to enter. This all being more than a millennium after Kressh's demise.

Sadow's above that, and Ragnos is apparently much more powerful than Sadow. Granted, Sadow may have grown in the years since Ragnos' Funeral, but I'm not seeing anything to suggest that he made up that difference.

There's also a couple of other things for Sadow (ie. being so strong in the Force that he could sustain himself for six centuries, and his own Tomb after over a millennium is able to drive Barel Ovair half-insane - Ovair being powerful enough to conceal his dark sided nature from the entire Jedi Order and stand in the Jedi Council Chamber unexposed) and by proxy, Ragnos.

Based on what is Ragnos more powerful than Sadow?

None of the feats for Sadow impress me even a quarter as much as Maul ragdolling Kenobi.

@Beni -

1. Yes, but Visas would also be amped by Korriban if she's dark-sided. And even then, she still can't enter the Tomb. Apparently the Tomb also knocks out your Jedi Exile character if you try to enter it before being strong enough.

2. Not every Sith Tomb at all. I don't recall any other Tomb being quite so powerful, but that's probably because they've all been looted whereas the artifacts in Kressh's Tomb were still intact up until KotOR II. That would explain why by KotOR II, Kressh's Tomb was the premier source of power on Korriban according to Kreia's Force senses.

Originally posted by Azronger
Based on what is Ragnos more powerful than Sadow?

None of the feats for Sadow impress me even a quarter as much as Maul ragdolling Kenobi.

1. Based on his quote about being the most powerful of the most powerful, which applies up until the point of his death. So Sadow may have grown since but as of 5000 BBY, Ragnos is stronger. Also because Kressh claims that Ragnos can crush Sadow and we see both Kressh and Sadow bowing subserviently before a mere shade of Marka Ragnos.

2. Sadow's solar flare feat is pretty circumstantial but pretty damn impressive, if I may say so myself. What about him being so powerful that he could survive for six centuries on his power alone? Or what about him being so powerful that his mere presence produced dark side taints in his equipment? What about him apparently being able to beat an army-busting force of uber-Massassi?

He's also apparently more powerful than any other Jedi between 5000 BBY to 3996 BBY, though it's not the most concrete of accolades.

Originally posted by SunRazer
@Beni -

1. Yes, but Visas would also be amped by Korriban if she's dark-sided. And even then, she still can't enter the Tomb. Apparently the Tomb also knocks out your Jedi Exile character if you try to enter it before being strong enough.

2. Not every Sith Tomb at all. I don't recall any other Tomb being quite so powerful, but that's probably because they've all been looted whereas the artifacts in Kressh's Tomb were still intact up until KotOR II. That would explain why by KotOR II, Kressh's Tomb was the premier source of power on Korriban according to Kreia's Force senses.

2. Like I said, to varying levels. Most if not all tombs are nexuses of power, many are corrupting and or hallucination inducing, etc. But sure, seems like those tombs aren't nearly as great when the paraphernalia has been stripped off them, despite still housing the life force of dead Sith Lords. 👆

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. Based on his quote about being the most powerful of the most powerful, which applies up until the point of his death.

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. Based on his quote about being the most powerful of the most powerful, which applies up until the point of his death. So Sadow may have grown since but as of 5000 BBY, Ragnos is stronger. Also because Kressh claims that Ragnos can crush Sadow and we see both Kressh and Sadow bowing subserviently before a mere shade of Marka Ragnos.

2. Sadow's solar flare feat is pretty circumstantial but pretty damn impressive, if I may say so myself. What about him being so powerful that he could survive for six centuries on his power alone? Or what about him being so powerful that his mere presence produced dark side taints in his equipment? He's also apparently more powerful than any other Jedi between 5000 BBY to 3996 BBY, though it's not the most concrete of accolades.

1. Ah yes, forgot about that one. Although I'd say the bowing is more due to respect and reverence of his status, rather than power:

http://rs1215.pbsrc.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/atlas%20reverence%20for%20dead_zpshf6hspwn.png?w=480&h=480&fit=clip

2. Mind posting the accolade?

I don't think the solar flare feat can't be used as valid evidence, since there's nothing to compare it to. How do you quantify that in terms of telekinetic output? You can't.

Sadow living that long was just Bane's musings wasn't it? Anyway, I wonder if "his power" means solely his innate Force reserves, or some technique. I'm guessing the latter, since it's been established that the more powerful you are in the dark side, the more your flesh decays and your life shortens. It doesn't make sense that it would be the opposite for Sadow, hence why I'm thinking it's a special ability. A great feat of knowledge to be sure, but hardly combat-appliccable.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
1. OK? That doesn't really negate anything I've said.

2. Like I said, to varying levels. Most if not all tombs are nexuses of power, many are corrupting and or hallucination inducing, etc. But sure, seems like those tombs aren't nearly as great when the paraphernalia has been stripped off them, despite still housing the life force of dead Sith Lords. 👆

1. Well, it eliminates the nexus amp argument. It's just the artifacts now. 🙂

2. Unless I'm mistaken, Nadd & Kun stripped Sadow's vaults and presumably his Tomb of any Sith paraphernalia they could find. Yet centuries later, Barel Ovair was still cucked by Sadow's life force.

And even looted, those Tombs continue to have a more profound effect on visitors than Maul's Naboo stain.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
That's circumspect tbh, it's probably referring to his status as Dark Lord of the Sith (i.e. Lord of the Sith Lords) given the statement is prefixed in those contexts. Uthar Wynn seems to think Naga Sadow is the most powerful.

As I see it, the "most powerful" Sith is the Dark Lord. Ragnos being "the most powerful of the most powerful" would then mean that he's the most powerful of the Dark Lords.

Regardless, even if it only means he's the most powerful Sith during 5000 BBY, he's still stronger than Sadow at that time.

No, Uthar Wynn called Sadow the greatest of the Sith Lords, and Ragnos has an identical (and more recent) accolade from an objective source as opposed to Sadow's subjective one, which is also from a limited perspective (though Ragnos' accolade comes from a shit-tier source). You've suggested in the other thread that some random Sith Lord discussing Ragnos' combat abilities in TOR was not a valid source of evidence, and if so, I'd expect you to hold the same standard here.

"Greatest" is debatable in meaning; but if you want to press that Sadow's the most powerful Dark Lord to date, then that's fine with me. It also does lend a degree of credence to the comparison some people have been drawing between the Ancient Sith line and the Banite Sith line - each Dark Lord gets progressively more powerful.

Originally posted by Azronger
1. Ah yes, forgot about that one. Although I'd say the bowing is more due to respect and reverence of his status, rather than power:

http://rs1215.pbsrc.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/atlas%20reverence%20for%20dead_zpshf6hspwn.png?w=480&h=480&fit=clip

Which is fine, but would they really bow so subserviently if they were more powerful than Ragnos?

2. Mind posting the accolade?

Here:

"Freedon Nadd said that Naga Sadow was a Sith alchemist…he knew secrets beyond the powers of the Jedi."

-- Tales of the Jedi: Dark Lords of the Sith: Death of a Dark Jedi

Sadow taught Nadd dark twistings of the Force, offering him Sith weapons and abilities no other Jedi Knight could withstand.

-- Chronicles of the Old Republic

Again, kind of unconventional accolades, but I've used quotes about X knowing specific secrets of greater power than Y to say that X > Y before.

I don't think the solar flare feat can't be used as valid evidence, since there's nothing to compare it to. How do you quantify that in terms of telekinetic output? You can't.

It's still a huge display of power nonetheless. What I also find interesting is that when Sadow calls upon the power of the crystal to produce the solar flares, he draws that power into himself without issue. Which suggests that he can house that insane level of power in his own body.

You also neglected to respond to the Massassi thing.

Sadow living that long was just Bane's musings wasn't it? Anyway, I wonder if "his power" means solely his innate Force reserves, or some technique. I'm guessing the latter, since it's been established that the more powerful you are in the dark side, the more your flesh decays and your life shortens. It doesn't make sense that it would be the opposite for Sadow, hence why I'm thinking it's a special ability. A great feat of knowledge to be sure, but hardly combat-appliccable.

Here's the quote; it seems to refer to raw power as opposed to specific techniques:

Freedon Nadd had been a Jedi who turned to the dark side as the apprentice of Naga Sadow, the former ruler of the ancient Sith Empire. Sadow's power had been so great, it had allowed him to survive for six centuries, fueled by the energies of the dark side.

-- Darth Bane: Rule of Two

As for not making sense, well, it's a Karpyshyn source.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Fairly agreeable. I'm open to the possibility that Hord approaches Dooku and Mace as a swordsman, but the Ancient Sith's skill levels are almost entirely up to personal imagination. It'd be near-impossible to prove or disprove that they're definitively at a certain level.

Muur's lightsaber showings against Krayt, who by now is surely Kenobi tier, is a great implication for the ancient Sith that were actual warriors and legendary for their lightsaber skills.

Krayt may have grown in the century since he fought Obi-Wan, but he also declined due to the Vong seeds.

But he also canonically grew far more powerful and perfected his lightsaber skills against a thousand opponents. It's also worth noting Muur was thousands upon thousands of years out of practice too.

Not sure if Muur being out of practice matters since as a spirit, he may well retain his skill permanently. And I already accounted for Krayt's growth - read my post. I'm saying we have to scale him back appropriately given his Vong seeds.

At the very least his augmentation should be significantly improved in his prime.

Yes but to argue the Vong seeds nullify the immense growth we know he went through to a degree so as to be insignifucant would be pretty far reaching.

I bring it up, because it's easily the best scaling the ancient Sith will ever get for comparison to other era duelists.

The problem is that it's not that hard to believe. Those things were eating him inside out. Muur did some healing but it only goes so far.

Karness Muurs spirit was stronger than 19 BBY Vader and he should be below Ajunta Pall. Ajunta claimed that he and his group were stronger than all Sith before them so they are above King Adas if you take that statement at face value although I don't remember if that was with the Star Forge amp or not.

Anyhow with the power of Muur Vader believed he could take down 19 BBY Palpatine. Vader never believed he had ever achieved the power to ever challenge his master by himself so this hypothetical version of Vader>ROTJ Vader, though you could argue ROTJ Vader>19 BBY Palpatine.

Vader contemplated being able to take down the Emperor with Muur's power. I don't remember it ever being a certainty.

It's also entirely plausible that Vader simply had a renewed perspective on Palpatine's powers in the years between 19 BBY and 4 ABY.

Vader did have a good view on ROTS Palps power as Anakin, he sensed Palpatine and Mace's powers as "boiling" in the ROTS Novelization. It was a vision he had and while yes a future vision isn't set in stone at the very least it indicates that Vader could at least challenge ROTS Palpatine's power. There's also the accolade that, according to the Narrator, Muurs power is beyond anything he's seen in the past.

Though my main point is that this hypothetical Vader is a level of power he most likely never achieved unless there's evidence that ROTJ Vader could challenge ROTS Palpatine and possibly kill him, as he did in his vision. WHich would place Muur>Vader and that bridge gives us an idea how to compare the ancients and modern Sith.

That doesn't put Muur > RotJ Vader. That puts Muur + 19 BBY Vader > RotJ Vader. Or Muur > Vader's growth in 23 years. Which is not an inconsiderable accolade in of itself, but not really important in the context of our discussion.

But Vader's power contribution wasn't said to be much if any. In fact the way the story made it out to be that it was all Muur's power that would have been a threat to Palpatine. Celeste Morne for example was getting force pushed by Vader and treated like nothing but the narrator stated that while her power couldn't defeat Vader, Muur's power can, which shows that a user of Muur's power isn't necessarily adding on to Muur's power. That indicates that Muur>19 BBY Vader and is the greater of the two in the union between himself and Vader. A power that Vader never achieves.

Not only that but the levels between the Ancient Sith are big in of themselves. Going by this the Ancient Sith outclass a vast majority of PT/OT high tiers. If the spirit of Muur which should be "powerless" compared to his living self is superior to 19 BBY Vader to the point that he can power up Vader to challenge and possibly kill Palpatine, then his living self is far beyond that and so are his peers and superiors.