Ranking the Ancient Sith

Nowhere is it implied that Muur alone could have challenged Palpatine. It's said that Muur and Vader together might've been able to topple Palpatine. That's it. You're reading too much into it; especially given that Vader's analysis of Palpatine's powers at this point may not be fully accurate. Certainly by ANH he regards Palpatine as the most powerful Sith Lord in history, which means Palpatine > Kun > Ragnos > Muur in his opinion - and that of course aligns with fact.

Who said his spirit was powerless? Vader was clearly sensing his true power, not some vague fraction of it. Which makes sense, since Sidious is several orders of magnitude beyond Muur in reality.

It's been confirmed by the entire Vector series that Muur's power is, in it's entirety, still in the talisman.

So yeh... Not just a powerless spirit.

Originally posted by SunRazer
2. Sadow's solar flare feat is pretty circumstantial but pretty damn impressive, if I may say so myself.

Vader even thought he could take on 18BBY Palpatine by himself.

"You killed her. That was good - it brought you to me."

You killed her. That was good. Vader was shocked at the grief and anger that roiled through him at his Master's words. He could easily have struck his Master down.

-Last of the Jedi: Reckoning

His words aren't reliable evidence at all regarding the scope of his Master's power.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Which is fine, but would they really bow so subserviently if they were more powerful than Ragnos?

If they revere him, I don't see why not. Respect for the dead is part of their culture.

Here:

Again, kind of unconventional accolades, but I've used quotes about X knowing specific secrets of greater power than Y to say that X > Y before.

The second one is fine, IMO, and quite good actually. Not sure if that puts him above Maul, though. Are any of the Jedi Knights from that era that are notable? Kenobi sure is, and Maul was tremendously more powerful than Kenobi.

It's still a huge display of power nonetheless. What I also find interesting is that when Sadow calls upon the power of the crystal to produce the solar flares, he draws that power into himself without issue. Which suggests that he can house that insane level of power in his own body.

Maul ragdolling Kenobi is also a huge display of power. But there's no way to compare the two as in which is better, so it's kind of pointless to bring it up, as I said.

You also neglected to respond to the Massassi thing.

What Massassi thing?

Here's the quote; it seems to refer to raw power as opposed to specific techniques:

As for not making sense, well, it's a Karpyshyn source.

Well, I'd rather go with the interpretation that makes the most sense and is the most consitent within the lore, rather than simply saying "well it's a Karpyshyn source", which is a cop out in my opinion. Also, there's this:

Here on YAVIN 4, Sadow drew on Sith technology and sorcery to cocoon himself in suspended animation until awakened at a future Golden Age.

-Chronicles of the Old Republic

Not a feat of power.

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. Well, it eliminates the nexus amp argument. It's just the artifacts now. 🙂

Indeed let's put it another way, can you prove that had Kressh died on any old world, without tomb, nexus or artifacts, that his life force would even have still existed thousands of years later? I'm going to go ahead and say no.

2. Unless I'm mistaken, Nadd & Kun stripped Sadow's vaults and presumably his Tomb of any Sith paraphernalia they could find. Yet centuries later, Barel Ovair was still cucked by Sadow's life force.

And even looted, those Tombs continue to have a more profound effect on visitors than Maul's Naboo stain.

As I see it, the "most powerful" Sith is the Dark Lord. Ragnos being "the most powerful of the most powerful" would then mean that he's the most powerful of the Dark Lords.

Regardless, even if it only means he's the most powerful Sith during 5000 BBY, he's still stronger than Sadow at that time.

And that is true, how long was Naga Sadow's reign?

No, Uthar Wynn called Sadow the greatest of the Sith Lords, and Ragnos has an identical (and more recent) accolade from an objective source as opposed to Sadow's subjective one, which is also from a limited perspective (though Ragnos' accolade comes from a shit-tier source). You've suggested in the other thread that some random Sith Lord discussing Ragnos' combat abilities in TOR was not a valid source of evidence, and if so, I'd expect you to hold the same standard here.

"Greatest" is debatable in meaning; but if you want to press that Sadow's the most powerful Dark Lord to date, then that's fine with me. It also does lend a degree of credence to the comparison some people have been drawing between the Ancient Sith line and the Banite Sith line - each Dark Lord gets progressively more powerful.

But no, I don't buy into the Ancient Sith scaling, merely, I believe the hierarchy of the ancient Sith is not as clear cut as some would like it to be.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Not at all lol, the point regarding the nexus is that it would have been a fertile preservative for Kressh's spirit, and the artifacts within, as well as augmenting and concentrating the potency of the nexus itself. The fact that a DS Visas may have gained strength from the same nexus, changes nothing. Rather if those criteria had not existed, Kressh' tomb probably wouldn't have been threatening at all.

Indeed let's put it another way, can you prove that had Kressh died on any old world, without tomb, nexus or artifacts, that his life force would even have still existed thousands of years later? I'm going to go ahead and say no.

Wasn't Dramath's Tomb strong in the dark side despite being on Rekkiad (nowhere) and having nothing other than his crypt?

Otherwise, fair point.

On Yavin 4... I didn't mention Sadow because his spirit ain't there mate. Now let's focus on the point rather than making disingenuous comparisons to Maul, namely that without the paraphernalia inside, these tombs were by and large non-threatening. I'm going to go ahead and assume the say would be the case for Kressh.

Sadow's spirit isn't on Yavin IV? What?

The Dark Lord is also the most powerful of the most powerful Sith of the time, yeah. Difference being that my reading is intrinsic to the Dark Lord title by which its prefixed, whereas your reading is not.

And that is true, how long was Naga Sadow's reign?

Well, if you count his exile, it's 600 years, but he also spent most of that in Stasis. As far as ruling the actual Sith Empire went, he only had 5000 BBY, and it was only over the span of 5 battles or so. I imagine it couldn't have been more than a few weeks at most.

Fair enough, though my intentions where merely to point out there is a conflict in opinion, naturally Uthar's claim doesn't concretely prove anything.

But no, I don't buy into the Ancient Sith scaling, merely, I believe the hierarchy of the ancient Sith is not as clear cut as some would like it to be.

Not clear cut, I'm just saying Sadow being supreme could lead one to fashion such an argument and there'd be more going for it.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Wasn't Dramath's Tomb strong in the dark side despite being on Rekkiad (nowhere) and having nothing other than his crypt?

Otherwise, fair point.

Sadow's spirit isn't on Yavin IV? What?

Well, if you count his exile, it's 600 years, but he also spent most of that in Stasis. As far as ruling the actual Sith Empire went, he only had 5000 BBY, and it was only over the span of 5 battles or so. I imagine it couldn't have been more than a few weeks at most.

Not clear cut, I'm just saying Sadow being supreme could lead one to fashion such an argument and there'd be more going for it.

2. What? Ovair set foot in his Yavin Tomb, after Nadd and Kun took all the equipment they could. I didn't say anything about Sadow's Korriban Tomb given that he wasn't even interred there. 😬

3. Yeah, that's what I said before.

Opinions on Ragnos' scepter's feat?

"I've heard from the New Republic. The Imperials supporting the Disciples of Ragnos have been defeated and the remaining cultists have been rounded up. It seems they lost their powers when the scepter was destroyed."

-Luke Skywalker, Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy

So basically, Ragnos' scepter was passively empowering legions of Dark Jedi, be they anywhere in the galaxy. Do you think this could be applied to Ragnos himself?

No.

Only in how effing beastly an alchemist he must of been to make it.

Originally posted by SunRazer
2. What? Ovair set foot in his Yavin Tomb, after Nadd and Kun took all the equipment they could. I didn't say anything about Sadow's Korriban Tomb given that he wasn't even interred there. 😬

3. Yeah, that's what I said before.

@Beni - Is this not evidence enough?

Awakening Sadow's dark spirit, Freedon Nadd learned all that he could about Sith sorcery, plundering Sadow's treasure vaults for whatever Sith artifacts and teachings he could haul away.

-- The Dark Side Sourcebook

This new visitor was Jedi Knight Exar Kun, who, guided by the dark spirit of Freedon Nadd, would reclaim the ancient artifacts Naga Sadow left behind and subjugate the descendants of Sadow's original Massassi, now devolved into barbaric savages.

-- The Dark Side Sourcebook