Darth Nihilus vs Darth Sidious

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Not at all. We can assume Nihilus's "aura" is functioning just fine. It's just that there's no proof that he can successfully employ his Force drain against a greater Force user. Especially one who's on his guard.

There's multiple aspects to Nihilus' aura, including

1.) Scaling power amp (the greater the foe, the greater the amp)
2.) Force Sundering attribute (Wound in the Force area, no channeling)

To start, Nihilus is coming into this heavily amped, and Sidious is going to have some difficulty centering himself and deploying Force powers.

You're wanting to establish an argument that something isn't likely, with zero evidence that it is. Why is that?

Off topic sidious is considered a dark side nexus himself right? Wouldn't that also amp nihilus or am I leaning on the autistic side of he force?

Originally posted by Miko Hacksaw
There's multiple aspects to Nihilus' aura, including

1.) Scaling power amp (the greater the foe, the greater the amp)
2.) Force Sundering attribute (Wound in the Force area, no channeling)

To start, Nihilus is coming into this heavily amped, and Sidious is going to have some difficulty centering himself and deploying Force powers.

You're wanting to establish an argument that something isn't likely, with zero evidence that it is. Why is that?

Not at all. I'm saying you have no proof of Nihilus's ability to successfully employ his drain against a prepared adversary who happens to be (a) more powerful and (b) much more knowledgeable than he.

He took the Jedi mooks on Katarr by surprise, staged his coup against Traya with Sion at his side, and only ever drained the Exile after immobilizing her and her team.

That you can't offer proof of such betrays the weakness of your argument and Nihilus's position in general. The Emperor is simply the superior Force user with respect to sheer might and mastery. Nihilus loses.

Even if he's not a Force Wound (since the general consensus is that he isn't), Sidious is just plain better.

FASTER
STRONGER

Sidious casually.

Originally posted by Geistalt
Even if he's not a Force Wound (since the general consensus is that he isn't), Sidious is just plain better.

[B]FASTER
STRONGER [/B]

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Not at all. I'm saying you have no proof of Nihilus's ability to successfully employ his drain against a prepared adversary who happens to be (a) more powerful and (b) much more knowledgeable than he.

...That you can't offer proof of such betrays the weakness of your argument and Nihilus's position in general.

There's never an argument ever made within the content itself that alludes to the idea that it's possible, so why do I need to present an argument in response to your assertion that it is? Your conceptualization of his ability goes against the material the content comes from and you demand proof that you're wrong.

It is akin to someone saying "this poison kills any biological creature it comes into contact with" and someone argues "well it's never come into contact with crabs at the bottom of the Mariana trench, so unless you can prove it works on them too, you don't have a case". Yet the burden of proof is on the dissenting voice, especially when core material establishes it to be true.

He took the Jedi mooks on Katarr by surprise

Are you saying they need to start resisting before they're attacked, in order to be able to defend against it, rather than being able to defend once they are coming under its effects?

staged his coup against Traya with Sion at his side

And sapped her powers himself, instantly depleting the combat ready Traya's Force reserves with the wave of a hand?

and only ever drained the Exile after immobilizing her and her team.

Which he did effortlessly (the stasis). That scene was written different ways, and each was to show how FAR more powerful he was than Meetra and company realized (even with all the hype authored in by the writers). If he had just decapitated the stasis suspended team, we'd have a different story. But he had to go and try to drain his polar opposite.

Originally posted by Geistalt
Even if he's not a Force Wound (since the general consensus is that he isn't), Sidious is just plain better.

[B]FASTER
STRONGER [/B]

Are you saying a biological entity, augmented by the Force is going to be Faster than a Spirit entity augmented by the Force? Especially one that can use Force Surge far longer than his target?

On what basis Geistalt?

Originally posted by Miko Hacksaw
There's never an argument ever made within the content itself that alludes to the idea that it's possible, so why do I need to present an argument in response to your assertion that it is? Your conceptualization of his ability goes against the material the content comes from and you demand proof that you're wrong.

It is akin to someone saying "this poison kills any biological creature it comes into contact with" and someone argues "well it's never come into contact with crabs at the bottom of the Mariana trench, so unless you can prove it works on them too, you don't have a case". Yet the burden of proof is on the dissenting voice, especially when core material establishes it to be true.

By "content itself" you're referring to dialogue between fallible characters prone to exaggerate and wax poetic.

My argument is that the Emperor is more powerful and knowledgeable than Nihilus. This is something we both know you can't dispute. The foundation for your house of cards is tenuous - Kreia's words - from which you infer that Nihilus's technique would be effective against Force users more powerful than he (even though there exists absolutely zero evidence in the lore to support that).

So really, it's akin to you saying that because you can bench press 200lbs, you must therefore be capable of bench pressing 2000.

Sidious is leagues beyond from anything Nihilus has encountered and no one has offered any evidence he's up to the challenge.

Are you saying they need to start resisting [b]before they're attacked, in order to be able to defend against it, rather than being able to defend once they are coming under its effects?[/b]

I'm saying one is more likely to withstand an attack when one is not taken by surprise.

And sapped her powers himself, instantly depleting the combat ready Traya's Force reserves with the wave of a hand?

With her focus divided between him and Sion, which was my point.

Which he did effortlessly (the stasis). That scene was written different ways, and each was to show how FAR more powerful he was than Meetra and company realized (even with all the hype authored in by the writers). If he had just decapitated the stasis suspended team, we'd have a different story. But he had to go and try to drain his polar opposite.

I don't dispute that Nihilus was more powerful than the Exile, Visas, and a middle-aged Mandalorian. But so too is the Emperor.

Which brings us back to square one: The Emperor is factually stronger and more masterful than Nihilus. In the absence of compelling evidence that Nihilus would be able to neutralize these advantages, logic dictates that he loses.

Edit: Sorry, used to SpaceBattles coding these days.

Temp, how effective do you think Nihilus' drain would be against a potentially weaker but far more masterful foe like Dooku (Dark Reaper aside)?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Temp, how effective do you think Nihilus' drain would be against a potentially weaker but far more masterful foe like Dooku (Dark Reaper aside)?

No clue, bud.

Assuming Nihilus applies to power in the way everybody else thinks he's powerful. Because there's a massive distinction between Nihilus' power and actual power in the Force.

Nihilus' Drain may have been different in origin to Apoc Krayt's Drain (although they might in fact be the same), and that would not have allowed Krayt to solo the more powerful Abeloth.

We know how K2 Drain works against stronger enemies - it's like the Triumvirate Assassins vs other Jedi, etc.

Sorry, ****ed it up. It's supposed to be:

Nihilus' Drain may have been different in origin to Apoc Krayt's Drain (although they might in fact be the same), but its effects are pretty similar and that would not have allowed Krayt to solo the more powerful Abeloth.

Emphasis on the part that was missing in the above post.

Nihilus' drain flat out severs the opponent from the Force though. Not really similar at all. It isn't a steady drain.

It's the exact same power, as Traya explicitly says. Nihilus is just so much stronger than his opponents than he severs their connections to the Force entirely, whereas the Assassins can't. But against a stronger opponent, Nihilus obviously can't sever their Force connection.

EDIT: Were you referring to Krayt's Drain? If so, that was affecting Luke and Abeloth's Force essence, IIRC, which is basically damaging their connection to the Force.

Yes, I'm saying that Nihilus and Krayts drain aren't similar at all. Krayt was slowly draining Abeloth while Nihilus severs an opponent immediately.

Krayt was also using it in a position where they were manifestations of themselves in a funky shadow realm. Their real bodies connections wouldn't be available to be severed from the Force anyway.

Yeah, they would. If you drain their very Force Essence, then their connection to the Force, even physical, would falter for it.

Besides, it's not like the fact that they were in the Shadow Realm weakened or somehow got rid of one's protection over their own Force Essence.

Nihilus can severe the Force connection of fodder immediately, sure, but can he do so against someone like Sidious? Doubtful. The only reason Krayt couldn't severe Abeloth's or Luke's connection to the Force is that they were both vastly ahead of him. Assuming he was placed against someone of relative impotency compared to his powers, such as Shaak Ti or Plo Koon, they'd get their Force connection severed swiftly.

@Neph -

1. Except Nihilus' Drain, being the same as the Assassins', does just that. The thing is that Nihilus is so much more powerful than his victims that can strip them of their connections to the Force instantly or near-instantly.

Again, KotOR II gives us every reason to believe that it's down to the disparity in power rather than the technique.

2. They were in a realm where physical damage equated to damage to their Force essences, IIRC. Which basically means Krayt was hurting Luke and Abeloth's Force connections.

Originally posted by SunRazer
@Neph -

1. Except Nihilus' Drain, being the same as the Assassins', does just that. The thing is that Nihilus is so much more powerful than his victims that can strip them of their connections to the Force instantly or near-instantly.

Again, KotOR II gives us every reason to believe that it's down to the disparity in power rather than the technique.

2. They were in a realm where physical damage equated to damage to their Force essences, IIRC. Which basically means Krayt was hurting Luke and Abeloth's Force connections.

1. The technique can be used in a variety of manners, true, but Nihilus' "drain" is a far different application than the Assassin. Who don't slowly drain btw, they just instantly grow relative to their opponents by all extents and purposes. You're assigning significance to Nihilus being more powerful than his opponents that isn't there. The technique has no defense, power is explicitly exempt from the techniques effectiveness. In fact, that the assassins can use it on those more powerful than themselves indicates it has no baring at all. You're once again making things up that you merely wish were the case, based on nothing.

I also find to hard to imagine Nihilus being more powerful than a hundred Jedi put together, personally.

2. Which makes it impossible to know what its effects would be in the real world. If it was damaging their connections (and I think you're just assuming that), it would be because of the location instead of the technique itself.

Krayt never demonstrated the drain in any real world situation afterwards. Which given how immensely powerful a drain like Nihilus' is, seems implausible if Krayt could do something similar.