In both continuities, Vader is more powerful in the Force than Dooku as of this time via his feats, and stated improvement in the Force in Canon.
In canon, Vader actually improved after his injuries, so Canon Vader would likely be the better duelist as well.
In Legends, Vader post ROTS has cybernetics backing his strength for use in Djem So, his physical augmentation as of 18 BBY had already measured up enough for him to be noticeably faster than a slightly post-ROTS Obi-Wan Kenobi (and he's had more time to catch up to his former glory since then), and he's had more time to adjust his fighting style to his new suited figure than he originally had to develop it pre-suit to begin with, not to mention some of the skills he had before are transferable. So even as a duelist he would've been built back up at least close to his former glory at this point, and at least on Dooku's level if not better.
So in both continuities Vader's a better Force user, in Canon he's most likely a better duelist as well, and in Legends I'd argue he's at least on par as a duelist if not better.
Vader's edge in the Force is further compounded by his physical durability, meaning that in a Force duel, not only could Vader erect superior barriers and levy superior offensives, but he can take more direct damage as well.
As far as a duel goes, that's a bit more hazy, but to compound more favor for Vader against Dooku in this area is the fact that he stacks up rather well against Dooku. He now has cybernetics backing his physical strength to wield against Dooku to overwhelm him, he has the armoring and physical durability to completely shrug off less kinetic blows (as is the nature of Dooku's fighting style), Vader now has studied Makashi as well so he can better meet the precision advantage of Dooku's fighting style while still retaining the strength advantage of his own fighting style, and Vader is completely familiar with Dooku's fighting style whereas Vader's style is different from what Dooku has faced before.
So Vader has a definite Force edge, and I'd argue a sabers edge as well, though even if he doesn't possess a sabers edge he'd put up enough of a fight in that category to sway the all-out with his Force advantage.
I appreciate the detailed answer.
Originally posted by Emperordmb
In both continuities, Vader is more powerful in the Force than Dooku as of this time via his feats, and stated improvement in the Force in Canon.In canon, Vader actually improved after his injuries, so Canon Vader would likely be the better duelist as well.
Legends takes priority over Canon as per the OP's stipulations. These statements will not be taken into consideration. Legends Vader never reached his former self's level, which is on par Yoda and Palpatine.
In Legends, Vader post ROTS has cybernetics backing his strength for use in Djem So, his physical augmentation as of 18 BBY had already measured up enough for him to be noticeably faster than a slightly post-ROTS Obi-Wan Kenobi (and he's had more time to catch up to his former glory since then), and he's had more time to adjust his fighting style to his new suited figure than he originally had to develop it pre-suit to begin with, not to mention some of the skills he had before are transferable. So even as a duelist he would've been built back up at least close to his former glory at this point, and at least on Dooku's level if not better.
Source for him being faster than Kenobi? Anyway, Dooku is faster than even prime Kenobi, so that's not an advantage Vader has over Dooku.
The two droids fired at Obi-Wan, but he batted their fired energy bolts back at them and cut them down as he moved fast for Dooku. Unfortunately, Dooku moved faster, extending his left hand toward Obi-Wan as he used the Force to lift the Jedi off his feet while at the same time constricting his throat.
-The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader
_____
The logic used to argue he's on Dooku's level as a duelist is flawed. One's aptitude for dueling is derived from the Force, to which Vader has a considerably lesser connection to than Anakin did. He had to built an entirely new method of fighting; only the technical knowledge he had as Anakin can be attributed to Vader, but nothing else.
Feats would also disagree with you here. While Anakin was hindered down to Obi-Wan's level as a Force user (as indicated by their telekinetic stalemate), Obi-Wan conceded inferiority to him as a duelist:
As Anakin's lightsaber hummed toward him, a calm certainty filled Obi-Wan. Anakin was going to kill him. Oh, he'd make Anakin work for it. He'd fight with everything he had. But he was positive, with the sureness of any Force-driven insight, that he would die at Anakin's hands
-Revenge of the Sith junior novel
Contrasted with Vader's performance against a "shadow" of the same Kenobi, it becomes apparent he isn't on par Anakin at all:
But just as he was ready to deliver the final strike, Obi-Wan managed a fast series of attacks, and Vader had to move quickly to avoid the strikes. Even as old and weak as Obi-Wan was, his technique was accomplished enough that a foolish move on Vader's part could still be fatal.
A group of stormtroopers standing in the dock became aware of them. Vader felt rather than saw them notice the strange duel, and sensed the troopers heading toward them.
He did not wish them to interfere, but to even warn them off would take concentration that he could not afford at the moment. Should his attention falter, Obi-Wan could kill him in the blink of an eye.
-Death Star
During the fateful duel with Darth Vader aboard the Death Star, the tall and powerful Sith Lord cannot break Obi-Wan's defenses until Kenobi voluntarily yields.
-Fightsaber
He still had some skill, his old Master did, but he was out of practice. Vader could feel it through the Force.
-Death Star
When Obi-Wan Kenobi duels his former apprentice Darth Vader on the Death Star, both combatants know that they are but shadows of their former selves.
-Insider
And he's certainly not better than Dooku, who was handling both prime Kenobi and Anakin at once, one-shotting the former with a kick in the comic, managing to control the path of Obi-Wan's blade against his will, and while ultimately challenged, beating Obi-Wan in the novel as well. All while dealing with Anakin. There's no way Vader comes out on top.
Vader's edge in the Force is further compounded by his physical durability, meaning that in a Force duel, not only could Vader erect superior barriers and levy superior offensives, but he can take more direct damage as well.
Agreed, but durability does not win fights by itself. It only prolongs the inevitable, unless the opponent tires quickly. And while Dooku does, he can fix that with a snap of his fingers:
He pushed this aside, drawing once more upon the certain
knowledge of his personal invincibility to open a channel to the
Force. Power flowed into him, and the weight of his years
dropped away.
-Revenge of the Sith novel
As far as a duel goes, that's a bit more hazy, but to compound more favor for Vader against Dooku in this area is the fact that he stacks up rather well against Dooku. He now has cybernetics backing his physical strength to wield against Dooku to overwhelm him, he has the armoring and physical durability to completely shrug off less kinetic blows (as is the nature of Dooku's fighting style), Vader now has studied Makashi as well so he can better meet the precision advantage of Dooku's fighting style while still retaining the strength advantage of his own fighting style, and Vader is completely familiar with Dooku's fighting style whereas Vader's style is different from what Dooku has faced before.
What strength showings does Vader have that would allow him to overwhelm Dooku? The latter was casually blocking the strikes of Grievous, who is a powerhouse in his own right. Also, even if Vader is stronger, it wouldn't be a big issue for Dooku since his style is based around redirecting strength rather than meeting it head-on.
Also, his armor wouldn't withstand a cho mai (severing of a hand) or a hit to the chest. It only fully protects him from certain places. And again, Vader's durability can only prolong the fight, not make him win it.
What advantage does Vader's style have over Dooku's? Djem So certainly has a weakness Dooku could exploit:
He dropped low and spun into another reverse ankle-sweep—the weakness of Djem So was its lack of mobility—that slapped Skywalker's boot sharply enough to throw the young Jedi off balance, giving Dooku the opportunity to leap away—
-Revenge of the Sith novel[/i]
Also, I find arguing form advantages kind of redundant, since in my opinion, unless we're dealing with realitively inexperienced duelists, it is about the user, not the form. Additionally, Dooku is familiar with all the forms of lightsaber combat and has sparred with Grievous many times. I doubt Vader would present anything the Count hasn't dealt with in the past.
Overall, I don't find any of the points you've raised to be enough to negate Dooku's skill advantage, and his overall performance against superior duelists. I don't see any reason as to why Vader would defeat Dooku in a dueling contest.
So Vader has a definite Force edge, and I'd argue a sabers edge as well, though even if he doesn't possess a sabers edge he'd put up enough of a fight in that category to sway the all-out with his Force advantage.
You haven't elaborated on the Force advantage at all. What is this based on?
Originally posted by AzrongerI was answering seriously, Dark Disciple happened, and Dooku takes the L here. 🙂
Stop trolling and answer seriously.
Was he already considered that as of 3 BBY?Sidious regards him as the greatest Jedi killer of all time looking back during DE, but I imagine the bulk of the Jedi he killed was pre-3BBY, as early as Tarkin refers to his powers as unparalleled, at some point before his initial death calls him his minor masterpiece, and the Dark Empire handbook describes him as the strongest of Palpatine's disciples. There is some wiggle room, but not much.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
[B]I was answering seriously, Dark Disciple happened, and Dooku takes the L here. 🙂
This 3 BBY Vader. TFU feats - especially TFU II feats - don't count.
Now, how exactly does Quin's one-off performance against Dooku refute any of the points I've raised so far about Dooku's skill in comparison to Vader?
Sidious regards him as the greatest Jedi killer of all time looking back during DE, but I imagine the bulk of the Jedi he killed was pre-3BBY, as early as Tarkin refers to his powers as unparalleled, at some point before his initial death calls him his minor masterpiece, and the Dark Empire handbook describes him as the strongest of Palpatine's disciples. There is some wiggle room, but not much.
Vader being the greatest Jedi killer of all time may have been in reference to the amount of Jedi he killed, not that he was the most powerful or skilled.
Quote from Tarkin?
The rest isn't referring to 3 BBY Vader.