Prime Darth Tyranus vs 3 BBY Darth Vader

Originally posted by Azronger
This 3 BBY Vader. TFU feats - especially TFU II feats - don't count.

Now, how exactly does Quin's one-off performance against Dooku refute any of the points I've raised so far about Dooku's skill in comparison to Vader?

Vader being the greatest Jedi killer of all time may have been in reference to the amount of Jedi he killed, not that he was the most powerful or skilled.

Quote from Tarkin?

The rest isn't referring to 3 BBY Vader.

Vader's faster now?

Also, with Legends taking priority, this is still Vader before ANH, at which time he was only a pale shadow of his former self and around Ben Kenobi's level, with Ben being a pale shadow of his RotS self, who in turn is lesser than Dooku.

Where does Dooku succumb to Anakin's strength in mid-TCW? Is this the Naboo one where he was getting angry? We see otherwise in his fights against Anakin in S6, Dark Disciple, the RotS film, the RotS junior novel, etc.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Also, with Legends taking priority, this is still Vader before ANH, at which time he was only a pale shadow of his former self and around Ben Kenobi's level, with Ben being a pale shadow of his RotS self, who in turn is lesser than Dooku.

Retconned by TFU, phag.

No contest.

What does TFU retcon? It's long been retconned that Vader fought other Jedi, sure, but I'm not seeing where TFU changes that either he or Ben Kenobi were pale shadows of their former selves. Ben is noted in 2002, 2007 and 2010 (post-TFU/TFU II) respectively to be past his prime.

If you're talking about TFU claiming that Vader's unparalleled, he can be better than Obi-Wan and still on the same level, as he clearly is. 😬

That being said, TFU Vader is decidedly more powerful than Dooku in the Force, and indeed boasts (generally) superior physicals. The Count's only saving grace here is skill and agility; possibly speed also.

Someone who can ragdoll frigate busters and outduel a near perfect Juyo duelist is not a shadow his former self lmao.

Originally posted by SunRazer
What does TFU retcon? It's long been retconned that Vader fought other Jedi, sure, but I'm not seeing where TFU changes that either he or Ben Kenobi were pale shadows of their former selves. Ben is noted in 2002, 2007 and 2010 (post-TFU/TFU II) respectively to be past his prime.

If you're talking about TFU claiming that Vader's unparalleled, he can be better than Obi-Wan and still on the same level, as he clearly is. 😬

Frankly though the whole shadow of his former self thing shouldn't really do much to be a negative. The fact that Vader was able to do all he did while supposedly in that state and then just growing after is still impressive. Ben ergo with him being able to duel Vader like that then is also good.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Vader's faster now?

Also, with Legends taking priority, this is still Vader before ANH, at which time he was only a pale shadow of his former self and around Ben Kenobi's level, with Ben being a pale shadow of his RotS self, who in turn is lesser than Dooku.

Where does Dooku succumb to Anakin's strength in mid-TCW? Is this the Naboo one where he was getting angry? We see otherwise in his fights against Anakin in S6, Dark Disciple, the RotS film, the RotS junior novel, etc.

@Beni -

1. Yeah; the Obi-Wan that Ferus saw was being repeatedly tagged by teenage Boba. Has Ferus seen Dooku or Mace in action? ANH Vader's speed was relatively matched by ANH Obi-Wan, who's factually slower than RotS Obi-Wan.

In 14BBY he was moving almost as one with the Emperor before it was revealed that his master had shown "so little of his true power".

In 1BBY, that would be the clone. What are his speed feats? I don't recall anything overwhelming. In 2BBY, the original Galen Marek is expressly stated to be faster than Vader in the novel, and this is 3BBY Vader.

2. I'm talking primarily about skill here; Vader doesn't outclass Ben in that. I already said Vader has better physicals than Dooku - what I'm debating here is whether or not the Count's skill edge could make up for his deficits in power and strength/durability, something I haven't reached a judgement on myself.

3. Yeah, 'cuz he was getting angry on Naboo. The fact that he failed to do anything of the sort in all of his later fights against Dooku says something.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Someone who can ragdoll frigate busters and outduel a near perfect Juyo duelist is not a shadow his former self lmao.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Someone who can ragdoll frigate busters and outduel a near perfect Juyo duelist is not a shadow his former self lmao.

Near-perfect Juyo duelist is a Kas'im-level accolade, although the clone doesn't actually have that accolade unless you think his skills are actually on par with Galen's. If so, the stark difference in Vader's performance against the two suggests that he grew substantially in that one year. But seeing as this is 3BBY Vader, he doesn't get that feat to begin with.

As for ragdolling frigate busters, that's power, not skill, and the accolade refers to lightsabers skill only (because, you know, it's from Fightsaber, which is an article on saber skill).

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Frankly though the whole shadow of his former self thing shouldn't really do much to be a negative. The fact that Vader was able to do all he did while supposedly in that state and then just growing after is still impressive. Ben ergo with him being able to duel Vader like that then is also good.

I'm using that to say Dooku > RotS Kenobi >> ANH Kenobi in skill, with ANH Obi-Wan being ~ ANH Vader in skill. And this is Vader 3 years before that.

The rest of your post is a given but irrelevant here.

Vader can't ragdoll the same Starkiller than busted that frigate anyway.

Starkiller was in an entirely different situation - and his power is highly situational.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Near-perfect Juyo duelist is a Kas'im-level accolade, although the clone doesn't actually have that accolade unless you think his skills are actually on par with Galen's.

Yeah except Kas'im's is a character opinion (iirc), while Galen's is not. And Kas'im lost to a traine while Galen contended with one of the premier lightsaber duelist of the prime of the jedi.

And yeah the clone still has that accolade:

Let the irony sink in.

If so, the stark difference in Vader's performance against the two suggests that he grew substantially in that one year. But seeing as this is 3BBY Vader, he doesn't get that feat to begin with.

The stark differnece is because of circumstances not because Vader grew vastly 😬

1. The part about Kas'im being the best ever was an opinion. The part about him training his whole life to perfect every form isn't, if I recall correctly. There's people like Kavar who are skilled masters of Juyo anyway.

Regardless, this accolade about Galen being "near-perfect" obviously isn't literal given that Galen is nowhere near perfect (level 10, and he's only a level 8 at best with there being an enormous difference between each level per Gillard). Heck, he gets this accolade at the start of the game, IIRC, by which time he's definitely not an 8. He immediately goes on to get outpaced by Kazdan Paratus and get swiftly put on the back foot by Shaak Ti, as well as "needing all of his skill to survive" against a simulacrum of Darth Desolous that every Padawan beats in order to become a Jedi Knight. Not to mention that an improved Galen goes on to struggle with Maris Brood and Shadow Guards. 😂

Compare that to Anakin, who, whilst hindered, effortlessly cleaved through a master of all forms (and more combat styles than most people would know) and a factually nigh-unparalleled swordsman in Cin Drallig. Not to mention being Palpatine-tier. Yeah, Vader beating Galen doesn't mean he isn't a former shadow of Anakin.

And yeah, I was referring to that quote when I said "unless you think his skills are on par with Galen's", so there's no irony whatsoever. The reason I had reservations before was because none of the clones are perfect, although Starkiller's problem was just emotional, right? If so, fair enough.

2. What circumstances? If there was such a disparity between Vader and SK, the Dark Lord could've beaten Galen during the pre-Dun Moch stage of the duel, but he didn't. Also, Galen's expressly stated to be faster than Vader in the novel, IIRC, whereas SK doesn't appear to be faster than Vader. So it does seem like Vader's improved.

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. Yeah; the Obi-Wan that Ferus saw was being repeatedly tagged by teenage Boba. as Ferus seen Dooku or Mace in action?

In 14BBY he was moving almost as one with the Emperor before it was revealed that his master had shown "so little of his true power".

In 1BBY, that would be the clone. What are his speed feats? I don't recall anything overwhelming. In 2BBY, the original Galen Marek is expressly stated to be faster than Vader in the novel, and this is 3BBY Vader.

[b]2. I'm talking primarily about skill here; Vader doesn't outclass Ben in that. I already said Vader has better physicals than Dooku - what I'm debating here is whether or not the Count's skill edge could make up for his deficits in power and strength/durability, something I haven't reached a judgement on myself.[/b]

3. Yeah, 'cuz he was getting angry on Naboo.

The fact that he failed to as much in all of his later fights against Dooku says something.

The examples provided here on the other hand are much more conclusive, and with fewer strings attached.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Regardless, this accolade about Galen being "near-perfect" obviously isn't literal given that Galen is nowhere near perfect (level 10, and he's only a level 8 at best with there being an enormous difference between each level per Gillard). Heck, he gets this accolade at the start of the game, IIRC, by which time he's definitely not an 8. He immediately goes on to get outpaced by Kazdan Paratus and get swiftly put on the back foot by Shaak Ti, as well as "needing all of his skill to survive" against a simulacrum of Darth Desolous that every Padawan beats in order to become a Jedi Knight. Not to mention that an improved Galen goes on to struggle with Maris Brood and Shadow Guards. 😂

Where do you get all this shit from?

He was outpaced by Paratus because of his mechanical legs, that doesn't diminish his skill in any way. The part about Shaak is right, but I already said that so idfk why you had to bring up again. And he did not f-ucking struggle with Maris lmao, he stomped her 😂

And it's cute how you try to dimiss his accolde, it still means he's f-ucking skilled. And then there's the quote too that says he's as good a duelist as he is powerful in the Force...

Originally posted by SunRazer
And yeah, I was referring to that quote when I said "unless you think his skills are on par with Galen's", so there's no irony whatsoever. The reason I had reservations before was because none of the clones are perfect, although Starkiller's problem was just emotional, right? If so, fair enough.

The irony is that the quote is from you.

Originally posted by SunRazer
2. What circumstances? If there was such a disparity between Vader and SK, the Dark Lord could've beaten Galen during the pre-Dun Moch stage of the duel, but he didn't. Also, Galen's expressly stated to be faster than Vader in the novel, IIRC, whereas SK doesn't appear to be faster than Vader. So it does seem like Vader's improved.

Sigh...Except it was confirmed that Vader didn't take him seriously, and then the Dun Möch kicked it. So yeah, all around useless feat for Galen.

Starkiller busted a frigate when he was in Oneness. He cannot bring that power to bear in a fight and Vader ragdolling him (which only happened in the Wii version btw) doesn't mean he can bust a frigate himself.

Lmao

Originally posted by Azronger
Starkiller busted a frigate when he was in Oneness. He cannot bring that power to bear in a fight and Vader ragdolling him (which only happened in the Wii version btw) doesn't mean he can bust a frigate himself.

It's weird though that people argue that Marek could have only done this because of his intense love for Juno who was facing death should he fail, when in the fight in which Marek was ragdolled by Vader, Marek was fighting out of intense love for Juno who facing death (if not being already dead) should he fail. 😱

And btw, the Wii version is no less canon than the rest. Sad times. 🙂