Prime Darth Tyranus vs 3 BBY Darth Vader

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Lmao, beating Drallig isn't better than beating Galen.

And Vader not only compares, but is better than Sidious 🙂

Darth Vader is the embodiment of all evil. Under the guidance of Emperor Palpatine-aka Darth Sidious- Lord Vader controls the Galactic Empire with an iron fist. He's an unparalleled lightsaber combatant and an even more capable Force wielder.
-- Star Wars: The Force Unleashed II: Prima Official Game Guide

Vader was also ranked as a better Red Saber wielder in SW:AEYNTK 😱

Originally posted by Beniboybling
😕

A ragdoll is a children's toy, obviously any comparison between Marek and one is going to be presented as a metaphorical. On the other hand, Vader was able to man handle Marek like a children's toy, and in the Wii version (of which their is no grounds for what you claim) fails to break his grip until the final moment. That seems like a sufficient feat of domination to me.

Fair enough, I guess.

As for your point on CV, the obvious discrepancies between the two events are sufficient to debunk it tbh. I'm sure you can spot them.

No, I can't. Help me.

Originally posted by SunRazer
There's no dismissal; I'm putting it in its place - it's obviously hyperbole. Being "skilled" doesn't mean shit at this level, lmao. And again, Vader beating him doesn't in any way put him up there with prime Anakin as you're implying. Anakin, probably more easily than Vader beat SK, beat an arguably superior swordsman than Galen in Cin Drallig, despite being hindered and using one hand because he was choking somebody else at the same time.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Interesting. Do you have evidence to back up the first two claims of yours? Also, unless I'm mistaken, more recent sources have Jedi musing that Vader around this time to be slow.

This rests on the assumption that the extent to which Sidious was holding back in Lords of the Sith and in The Lawless is identical, which is up to you to prove.

If the suggestion is that Vader is noticeably faster than Maul or Savage, that seems unlikely given that his movements are stated to be restricted by a 2010 source and according to Lucas, he's a "crippled half-robot" which certainly doesn't sound like he's faster than Maul at all.

Vader's suit restricting his mobility and Lucas describing him as a crippled half robot is to state the obvious, but rather redundant in proving Vader to be slower than Maul, Dooku or anyone else. Fact remains he is still preternaturally fast, and through superior augmentation, could be faster than any of them.

Even if it did refer to fighting styles, that's not mutually exclusive from it listing advantages as well.

As for Vader increasing over the years, my evidence lies on the disparity of his performance between Galen and SK, although the circumstances may balance it out as my discussion with Zoltan is bringing up.

On that topic, Vader's Jedi killer quote is a Legends accolade, and I'm not seeing why Dooku would fall under its jurisdiction. To memory, the only Jedi that Dooku's personally killed is Tiplee, which happens in a canon-only comic. Sifo-Dyas he arranges to get killed and doesn't execute personally; and I can't think of any other kills off the top of my head - certainly not any notable ones. With a record of zero Jedi kills in Legends, I think it's fair game to exclude Dooku from that accolade since he isn't really a personal Jedi killer to begin with.

He has better skill feats and accolades.

The RotS junior novel claims that Anakin and Dooku are dead even and even in the RotS novel, Anakin's advantages come down to physicals rather than skill. We know Anakin as of the start of RotS eclipses Obi-Wan.

Apart from that, contending with Yoda, being equal with Mace as of Yoda: Dark Rendezvous, easily beating Grievous on repeated occasions, trashing S6 Obi-Wan holding his own comfortably against Obi-Wan and Anakin in RotS (the RotS novel's an outlier) should put him above Obi-Wan.

In regards to how they compare to Anakin, amazingly the junior novelisation is wrong, Gillard puts Anakin at a 9, so he's surpassed the Count too, whereas with his immense power stifled on Mustafar, Anakin & Kenobi were indeed described as evenly matched.

Well, these come down to saberlocks rather than a theme of Dooku succumbing to Anakin's strength throughout the fight.

In the first one, I agree he was outright overpowered, but it wasn't that big of a deal since he was able to respond to Anakin's follow-up moves just fine. We have examples of Yoda doing something similar to Sidious. In the second one, it looks like Dooku is briefly having some sort of mental realization about how good Anakin is; he manages to halt Anakin's blade eventually and use telekinesis at the same time. Later in the same fight, Anakin and Dooku briefly lock blades again and Anakin's clearly not pushing Dooku's blade back in that one.

But no I wouldn't say that at all. And I'm not sure how you fathomed that from his expression of strain, not surprise (which makes no sense given he just overpowered him), before resorting to creating distraction to escape, while (maybe) holding back his blade for a meaningless split-second. Later Dooku uses his Magnaguards to force Anakin to break off, before he can push any meaningful advantage. So that's not a very fair example. Regardless your wrong:

We see Anakin leaning forward and his blade getting larger with proximity. Guy can't even hold him back for 1 second. Sad. 🙂

And naturally this excuse loses all weight when it came to their second engagement in which Anakin overpowers him, again.

It's arguable that the first two instances with Anakin pushing the Count's saber back come down to Dooku underestimating Anakin (IIRC, this is their first fight since the TCW movie so he probably didn't expect Anakin to grow so much), since in the second one he eventually manages to stop Anakin from pushing with his blade anymore, and in the bladelock after that, again, Anakin fails to push Dooku's blade back at all.

In the last one, Dooku overpowers Anakin, so I have no idea what you're talking about. People may be pushed back slightly in bladelocks as they gather power to overpower their opponent; I'm sure you know what I'm talking about. Also, Anakin just came off a bloodlusted attack on Dooku and later has a visibly angry face as Dooku escapes, so I'd say he was fairly pissed.

And while we're on the topic I should also add:

Had that been Vader he'd have lost his nose. 🙂

I didn't say Dooku was stronger than Anakin, just that Anakin failed to replicate such things in later fights. Also regarding leverage, it's funny that one of your earlier examples was from Crisis on Naboo, because in that one when Anakin leaps onto the ramp, Dooku uses only one hand to block a two-handed avalanche strike from behind him, which is a terrible situation as far as leverage goes. Yet, Dooku doesn't succumb to Anakin's strength there at all.

And my point is that those examples you've raised don't prove the others to be outliers. Though it also makes sense that with frequent encounters Dooku would get better at predicting and handling him, that's certainly the approach they took with Obi and Maul.

Also, no, the RotS novel is an outlier when it comes to the duel on the Invisible Hand; it depicts Dooku floundering against the duo and the duo changing fighting styles which no other source does. The film doesn't show Dooku struggling until the end, and the junior novel, which is much more closely aligned with the film, depicts Dooku appearing at ease even when defending against the both of them; he's also only driven back slowly. Not to mention both the SW website and TCSWE claim that Dooku proved a formidable opponent to the duo. The script has Dooku driving the duo back at least once, with him and Obi-Wan tiring at the same rate whilst Anakin grows in strength over the course of the fight as a result of "getting angry".

As I mentioned earlier, the RotS junior novel depicts Anakin as being unable to gain any kind of advantage over Dooku at all until he draws upon his rage. That would include strength. 🙂

Finally while the primary novelisations depiction of Anakin in this fight closely aligns with Gillard's description of Anakin as "unbeatable" and the most powerful Jedi ever. The junior novelisation's depiction of Anakin as only Dooku's equal, does not.

The adult novelisation depicts a scenario in which Anakin and Kenobi off-balance Dooku under which circumstances he gets ploughed. In the movie Dooku's composure goes unshaken (and thanks to TCW is experienced fighting them) and is able to seemingly hold his own. I say seemingly because in the end its all just a flashy lightshow, from the movies alone you might infer that Dooku and Yoda were fighting evenly, and yet secondary sources are unanimous in describing the Count as outclassed. The other points you've raised are either present in the novelisation or not present in the film.

Regardless by the stipulation of the OP, Legends takes precedence anyway. 😱

Originally posted by Azronger
No, I can't. Help me.

Well for starters Starkiller was not lit up like a fairy lamp as before, which is also customarily how major Oneness states are depicted in Legends. And though one could argue it was simply not mentioned already the comparison is circumspect. Secondly Starkiller did not die, whereas releasing "all the power of the Force" in TFU killed him.

Now to address the similarities you've drawn, first that dying brings out the best in him, yes it's a reference to the aforementioned feat, but that's all it is, a reference, Starkiller no means of knowing whether or not he's about to phase into Oneness, he's merely reassuring himself that death is not something to be scared of - the fact that again he did not die, but instead emerged relatively unscathed, only serving to highlight how this instance things ended up different.

Finally the fact that he unleashed "all the power of the Force within him" only proves it was a feat of maximum effort, whether or not it was a state of Oneness only determines how much Force energy that would have been.

Starkiller's frigate busting wasn't any more Oneness than Dooku tossing a table 😂

There are plenty of instances in TCW where Dooku over-powers Anakin in saberlocks. Look at Oba Diah and the end of the Naboo fight(s).

Also you can't say Dooku brought 4 magnaguards with him because he was scared; the goal was to capture Anakin from the start, not kill him.

Nah Dooku's a pussy. 🙂

Originally posted by Beniboybling

Well for starters Starkiller was not lit up like a fairy lamp as before, which is also customarily how major Oneness states are depicted in Legends. And though one could argue it was simply not mentioned already the comparison is circumspect. Secondly Starkiller did not die, whereas releasing "all the power of the Force" in TFU killed him.

He died because Palpatine killed him. It's stated in the novel he didn't feel his own attack, yet still saw it. If he didn't feel it, then it obviously couldn't have hit him, and if he saw it, then he was obviously alive as the blast went off.

He saw rather than felt the massive shock wave that consumed a large portion of what remained of the observation dome. A glowing bubble of fire tore the stormtroopers to shreds and engulfed Vader and the Emperor. Shrapnel filled the air like dust caught in the beam of the Death Star's powerful laser.

-The Force Unleashed

It also lists people who were engulfed in the explosion, and there is no mention of Galen. The only explanation that remains is that the Emperor killed him with lightning. Thus, this cannot be used as evidence against my case.

And yeah, simply because he wasn't mentioned as glowing doesn't mean it didn't happen. Also, not every Oneness feat is described as the user glowing, so again, that can't be used to dismiss my case. For example:

The smell of Reija's hair still in nostrils, Anakin reached deep into the Force. A sense of invincible power came over him, infusing him completely. Even during the desperate battle with the enemy tank droids and the attack on the hill he had not experienced the Force as fully as it now flowed into him. In that instant when achieved total oneness with the Force he knew could do anything, and it felt good. All thought of his mission, retreating to the transports, evacuating the hostages, giving the signal to Nejaa that would spell victory, evaporated. "Follow me!" he commanded the clone troopers.

Nejaa Halyon sat as if transfixed. He knew the disturbance in the Force he was experiencing was a result of Anakin's tapping into it. He knew Anakin was still alive. But there was something troubling....

Anakin was so fully filled the Force that he was barely aware of himself. All he knew was the joy of the Force, a greater joy than he'd ever felt before. There was so much power in the Force, and all that power was his--his!--to do with it as he would.

Anakin Skywalker, filled with the Force, the agent vengeance, raised his lightsaber and advanced towards the nearest technician.

-Jedi Trial

Now to address the similarities you've drawn, first that dying brings out the best in him, yes it's a reference to the aforementioned feat, but that's all it is, a reference, Starkiller no means of knowing whether or not he's about to phase into Oneness, he's merely reassuring himself that death is not something to be scared of - the fact that again he did not die, but instead emerged relatively unscathed, only serving to highlight how this instance things ended up different.

Finally the fact that he unleashed "all the power of the Force within him" only proves it was a feat of maximum effort, whether or not it was a state of Oneness only determines how much Force energy that would have been.

If you want to dismiss it on the basis that it is not explicitly stated, then I guess you have a point, but I'd disagree. Personally, I'd say the implications are strong enough to count it as a state of Oneness. Sure, you can say Starkiller didn't know it was going to happen, but he didn't know it was going to happen the first time either. He simply embraced the Force as fully as he could and as a result entered Oneness. Here Starkiller is embracing the Force just as fully and has the exact same mindset and drive to save his loved one, so why wouldn't he enter Oneness here?

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
1. Yet Shaak was explicitly in charge of the Temple not Drallig, RIP.

2. Dooku's opinion doesn't matter for shit considering he left the Order over a decade ago. He didn't even meet the padawan of his padawan until AotC 😂

3. Lmao reiterating the same retarded points won't make it true. He still stomped Maris (and I don't recall the shadow gaurd atm so quote?). Besides he flat out states his skills improved since Nar Shaadda, as well as growing more powerful with each mission.

4. He did not lel. Drallig had help, Drallig was prepared, and he was still stomped. Never mind that Sidious > Anakin anyway.

1. So what if she was in charge of the Temple defense? In what way does that stop Drallig from being part of it all the same? The fact that he's head of all those Temple security forces may make him obliged to remain in the Temple as he was throughout the War. Alternatively, as I said, he might've just been staying to train the padawans, which he was doing throughout the War despite being one of the Order's top swordsmen as per Insider #87.

2. Actually, that attests to Cin's skill as of TPM alone, since the B-team were already big game by then, IIRC, and Cin has some time to grow as well (albeit probably less than the B-team). And obviously Dooku not meeting Anakin until AotC/disliking him personally is the reason for him excluding Anakin. All the same, his citation of Drallig's skill remains impressive; we know that by TPM alone he belongs in the upper echelons of duelists and would pose a reasonable threat to Grievous at least. It doesn't definitively put Drallig above them but it helps.

3. He was put on the backfoot immediately against Maris, then stalled with Soresu before switching to Juyo to overwhelm her (she was unfamiliar with Juyo and thus couldn't counter it). There's no stomp there. For the Shadow Guards, there's one where Galen nearly gets knocked flat by one of their strikes, but here's them fighting back and forth which suggests that Galen couldn't beat the Guard easily:

Out of the cloud of metal fragments leaped a second of the Emperor's Sith assassins, saber-staff upraised. The apprentice met him with a clash of sparks and lightning.

Sith against Sith, they fought backward and forward through the broad, metal-lined space. This assassin was more proficient than the first, wiry and strong with a good reach and penchant for telekinetically throwing items from inside the apprentice's blind spot

-- The Force Unleashed

And at the end of the day, the degree to which he improved is entirely arbitrary. We just know he did. In what way does that put him above Shaak? He was floundering against her, IIRC.

4. lol Saesee fell after watching Agen die, and both failed to block a single strike; Kit himself blocked one or two before Mace saved him from another blow (he would've died then) and then he fell in another one or two strikes. Cin at least parried two or three blows straight. The B-team's performance was worse except possibly Kit's.

Palpatine's only better because Anakin was hindered vs Drallig. Otherwise, per Gillard, the difference between level 9's comes down the specific circumstances of the fight alone. At this point, per Gillard, Anakin is unbeatable (so is Palpatine). They're even; Anakin was just hindered at this point.

Drallig wasn't prepared for shit. He was fighting clones until Anakin came; it's not like he set up a specific trap for Vader or anything. If anything, the fact that Drallig was fighting clones immediately before Skywalker would've allowed Anakin to start the fight on his terms, which if anything puts Drallig at more of a disadvantage, but I won't press the point.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Dooku's described in LoE as the Order's most "agile" instructor, I assume that means he's one of the best. Not sure about Windu, but I recall him sparring with Kenobi. And Dooku had lessons on lightsaber combat in the Great Holocron I believe, but I'll have to look into that. Olin's remarks being from a 2007 book, which is fairly recent. Dark Lord (2005) has him being described as "lightning-fast".

When were Kai Huddora's comments?

I never said anything about them being identical. In fact I'd argue Sidious was faster in LotS seeing as well as growing more powerful the Lylek Queen & her horde were a greater threat. Moreover as far from "never wavering from his position of superiority" the Queen had Palpy quite literally on his back, and certainly he didn't toy with his opponents.

Well, naturally, he was threatened because he was holding back so much. The novel's ending implies that he was never in any real danger.

Vader's suit restricting his mobility and Lucas describing him as a crippled half robot is to state the obvious, but rather redundant in proving Vader to be slower than Maul, Dooku or anyone else. Fact remains he is still preternaturally fast, and through superior augmentation, could be faster than any of them.

Augmentation you've yet to prove. He may be faster than Jedi Dooku, but so is Sith Dooku per Labyrinth of Evil. He may be faster than Obi-Wan but so is Dooku per The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader.

And even if he was faster than Dooku, is there any reason to believe that it'd be anything more than a minuscule difference and thus an irrelevant edge?

It proves nothing concrete and Vader's superior speed is demonstrated in TFU II. And Zoltan is correct in pointing out it to be circumstantial. Marek used Dun Moch to undermine his concentration and his resolve, giving him the victory, before that Vader managed to land two glancing hits. TFU II further indicating that Vader underestimated him in that duel. And once again if Vader had notably improved, Starkiller would have noted it.

It seems as if the disparity being depicted between them in TFU II would suggest that Vader could've beaten Galen in TFU before the Dun Moch, especially since he caught Galen off guard with that opening move that nearly broke his defence entirely.

Vader underestimating Starkiller for a second time in a row? lmao

Fair enough, though that's one of several.

Right. So again, what establishes Vader as being a match for Dooku or more skilled than Dooku as of 3BBY? Three years later, he's still only marginally more skilled than Ben Kenobi, who's a pale shadow of his RotS self. So there's no comparison with Tyranus there.

Well first we have to account for Dooku's greater Force augmentation, which plays a significant part in the majority of which you've referred. We are assessing the sheer skill by which he was able to compete with Vader, in which respect Mace regarded Kenobi as his peer and was indeed outperformed by him against Grievous. I'd say that puts him in his league, as does the Count shitting his pants over his Soresu reveal. And as far as RotS being an outlier is concerned, I'll address that later.

In regards to how they compare to Anakin, amazingly the junior novelisation is wrong, Gillard puts Anakin at a 9, so he's surpassed the Count too, whereas with his immense power stifled on Mustafar, Anakin & Kenobi were indeed described as evenly matched.

That's wrong. Gillard says he's a 9 only after joining the dark side; prior to that, he's still an 8, just better than Obi-Wan.

And obviously Obi-Wan is in Dooku's league in that they're both level 8's, but that doesn't mean there can't be a disparity. Dooku shat his pants because he was taken off-guard as much as it was because of how good they were, and again, that's from the RotS novel which doesn't happen anywhere else. Equally outlier sources have Dooku one-shotting Obi-Wan without even looking at him. 😂

Originally posted by Beniboybling
The point isn't that Dooku succumbs to Anakin's strength consistently, only repeatedly, in which respect Vader being much stronger means Dooku will be succumbing much more often, and to much greater effect, or rather he's in for a butt-blasting. 👆

Again it might not have been so much a big deal then, it will be against a far stronger opponent.

Perhaps. Most of the people who duel Vader are actually weaker than Dooku, so it won't be that big of a problem. Recall that the Count successfully lasted against Yoda, who brings to bear greater speed, strength and skill than Vader - all by noticeable margins. I do expect that he'll strain against Vader, but now we have to decide whether that'll be enough to counter the Count's edge in skill.

But no I wouldn't say that at all. And I'm not sure how you fathomed that from his expression of strain, not surprise (which makes no sense given he just overpowered him), before resorting to creating distraction to escape, while (maybe) holding back his blade for a meaningless split-second.

He seems to be staring at his blade in a brief moment of disbelief before steeling himself, at which point Anakin's blade is halted.

Later Dooku uses his Magnaguards to force Anakin to break off, before he can push any meaningful advantage. So that's not a very fair example. Regardless your wrong:

We see Anakin leaning forward and his blade getting larger with proximity. Guy can't even hold him back for 1 second. Sad. 🙂

Hmm.. fair. Didn't notice that. Although Anakin's clearly angry then and has good reason to be after the Magnaguards reveal themselves. 🙂

These added contexts don't hold water at all I'm afraid, if Dooku underestimated Anakin he wouldn't have brought four elite Magnaguards as backup. He's already noted how Anakin's skills had grown significantly between AotC and the TCW movie, despite only a few months having passed, Anakin having in AotC already demonstrated surprising power and skill. We are two years into the war now, and Anakin possessed the immense potential of the Chosen One, common sense dictates he's advanced dramatically, and Dooku has a least a bit of this. Moreover Anakin's reputation would precede him, and with Dooku being privy to the intimate details of Anakin's private life this reputation would certainly have reached his ears. He has little excuse to underestimate Anakin, and from his approach it is clear to me that he did not.

I don't see how any of this changes the fact that Dooku could've been overconfident. As a Sith, he rates himself highly and it's entirely plausible that he didn't believe that Anakin could catch up to him so quickly.

Nah he threw him off with telekinesis, I realise this wasn't clear from the gif. And like I said, Vader > Enraged Anakin. That should be quite obvious given in rage mode he couldn't fully overpower Barriss whereas Vader almost disarmed Marek with his opening salvo. Though I'll overlook the fact that from Anakin looking all mean you've determined he was bloodlusted. 😂

The Barriss thing I blame on TCW 🙂

And no, I determined that he was still angry on the back of the fact that he had just come off a full-bloodlust assault on Dooku.

Really? I thought having the high ground was a good thing. hmm

That's irrelevant when they're leaping on top of you with a two-handed strike and you're blocking behind your head with one hand. 😬

And my point is that those examples you've raised don't prove the others to be outliers. Though it also makes sense that with frequent encounters Dooku would get better at predicting and handling him, that's certainly the approach they took with Obi and Maul.

Perhaps.

The RotS novel is both the primary novelisation and the novelisation line-edited by Lucas himself. It's absolutely the more reliable source. You argue that the junior novel more closely aligns with the film and yet the scene in which Anakin and Dooku fought "down the long length of the room" doesn't occur anywhere in the film, instead we get Anakin driving Dooku up the staircase and at one point blowing threw Dooku's guard, a few seconds of inconclusive fighting and then an extended period of Anakin shoving his lightsaber up Dooku's nethers. It doesn't hold water.

Finally while the primary novelisations depiction of Anakin in this fight closely aligns with Gillard's description of Anakin as "unbeatable" and the most powerful Jedi ever. The junior novelisation's depiction of Anakin as only Dooku's equal, does not.

Regardless by the stipulation of the OP, Legends takes precedence anyway. 😱

Just because there are a few discrepancies between the junior novel and the film (as there'd be between any two renditions of the fight) doesn't change the fact that it aligns with the film far moreso than the adult novel. That aside, even if you interpret the RotS novel as a more reliable source, the fact of the matter is that it portrays Anakin better than in anything else - he's faster and stronger than Yoda for gods' sake; that's well beyond Vader also.

Secondly, no, Gillard says that Anakin's a 9 and the best etc. as a Sith Lord. He says that prior to tapping into the dark side (as he does in the final portion of the duel with Dooku), Anakin's an 8, so that only gives us more reason to believe that he was only a match for the Count.

If Legends takes precedence that would mean that there's no specific depiction of the fight that's outright superior in value.

Also, where does Anakin blow through Dooku's guard in the film? It seems to me that Dooku is depicted as the strongest of the three until Anakin gets enraged.

The adult novelisation depicts a scenario in which Anakin and Kenobi off-balance Dooku under which circumstances he gets ploughed. In the movie Dooku's composure goes unshaken (and thanks to TCW is experienced fighting them) and is able to seemingly hold his own. I say seemingly because in the end its all just a flashy lightshow, from the movies alone you might infer that Dooku and Yoda were fighting evenly, and yet secondary sources are unanimous in describing the Count as outclassed. The other points you've raised are either present in the novelisation or not present in the film.

Both the film and junior novel show Dooku being composed and appearing at ease in deflecting all of their strikes; this is supported by SW.com and TCSWE claiming that Dooku proved a formidable opponent to them. The RotS novel sits alone with its Anakin raping Dooku solo and the Count shitting himself at the sight of their Soresu/Djem So.

Secondary sources aren't unanimous in describing Tyranus as outclassed against Yoda at all. 😂

With Form II, Dooku holds his own even against Master Yoda in Attack of the Clones.

-- Star Wars Adventures Magazine #3

It was Count Dooku's combination of finesse and superior craftsmanship that enabled him to best both Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker, as well as hold his own against Jedi Master Yoda, during the Battle of Geonosis.

-- The Official Star Wars Fact File #68

Here, his decades of lightsabre training gave him the ability to parry and riposte against Yoda's frenzied Form IV fighting style. Although the match ended in a stalemate, many Jedi believed Dooku would return for another confrontation with the Jedi.

-- The Official Star Wars Fact File #68

Forced to cross sabers with Dooku, Yoda falls back on his knowledge of Form IV, an acrobatic style that lets him overcome the natural limitations of his size and reach. He lacks the stamina of youth, but calls on the Force to fight the Sith Lord to a draw.

-- Attack of the Clones: The Expanded Visual Dictionary

Yoda and Dooku were almost equals, with the little Jedi Master having perhaps a slight edge over his former padawan.

-- The Official Star Wars Fact File #34 (Relaunched)

Originally posted by Azronger
He died because Palpatine killed him. It's stated in the novel he didn't feel his own attack, yet still saw it. If he didn't feel it, then it obviously couldn't have hit him, and if he saw it, then he was obviously alive as the blast went off.

It also lists people who were engulfed in the explosion, and there is no mention of Galen. The only explanation that remains is that the Emperor killed him with lightning. Thus, this cannot be used as evidence against my case.

hmm

FYI: Palpatine wasn't trying to kill him.

And yeah, simply because he wasn't mentioned as glowing doesn't mean it didn't happen. Also, not every Oneness feat is described as the user glowing, so again, that can't be used to dismiss my case. For example:

-Jedi Trial

If you want to dismiss it on the basis that it is not explicitly stated, then I guess you have a point, but I'd disagree. Personally, I'd say the implications are strong enough to count it as a state of Oneness. Sure, you can say Starkiller didn't know it was going to happen, but he didn't know it was going to happen the first time either. He simply embraced the Force as fully as he could and as a result entered Oneness.

And my point their wasn't that because Galen didn't know it was going to happen, it wasn't going to happen, but because he didn't know what was going to happen, he couldn't have known was that going to happen.

Here Starkiller is embracing the Force just as fully and has the exact same mindset and drive to save his loved one, so why wouldn't he enter Oneness here?

Originally posted by Emperordmb
I agree with you that the people really thinking Vader beating someone with a sub-Kas'im level accolade puts him close to Anakin level is wrong... but come on. Drallig>Galen is ridiculous.

Well, I rank Drallig pretty highly and still said it was arguable; they're around the same level, at least, and Anakin beat Drallig far more casually than Vader did Galen despite being mentally conflicted as per the RotS junior novel.

Also, doesn't Galen get that shitty accolade as of his fight with Kota? If so, his subsequent performance against Darth Desolous' simalucrum debunks it entirely. 😂

Originally posted by Beniboybling
"The apprentice felt himself leaving his body again. Or was his body leaving him this time? He felt ripped apart by the energy that had flowed through him. Every cell was in shock; every fiber shook. The fire on his face possessed no heat at all. His limbs felt as distant as the farthest arms of the galaxy. He was amazed there was enough left of him to think at all."

hmm

FYI: Palpatine wasn't trying to kill him.

A fair point. But they were written by the same author, so it strains common sense that he would choose to describe it differently. Moreover, Galen did glow when he entered Oneness, so it that respect, it doesn't appear to be at all an identical state.

I dismiss it on the basis that Starkiller survived, and because likeness does not mean sameness.

And my point their wasn't that because Galen didn't know it was going to happen, it wasn't going to happen, but because he didn't know what was going to happen, he couldn't have known was that going to happen.

Because his body wasn't being pushed to its physical limits perhaps? And because Oneness is not handed out like candies?

Fair enough, then.

Vader wins in a good fight

Originally posted by SunRazer
When were Kai Huddora's comments?

Well, naturally, he was threatened because he was holding back so much. The novel's ending implies that he was never in any real danger.

In which respect, why would Palpatine try harder against a lesser opponent?

Augmentation you've yet to prove. He may be faster than Jedi Dooku, but so is Sith Dooku per Labyrinth of Evil. He may be faster than Obi-Wan but so is Dooku per The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader.

And even if he was faster than Dooku, is there any reason to believe that it'd be anything more than a minuscule difference and thus an irrelevant edge?

And sure but if we assume for a moment that he is, this is 18BBY Vader, he's got almost 20 years of growth on Dooku's 13 - as well as significantly greater potential - in which he essentially rebuilt himself as a combatant and a Force wielder. I'd say that would afford a notable edge, as would rivalling the speed of Savage blitzing Maul toying Sidious, and no selling Starkiller with an impenetrable defense.

And all this just feeds into the TCW Anakin comparison, who's inferior speed to Dooku often gave a way of circumventing Anakin's strength, with that option eliminated the path to victory for the Count narrows further, while his disadvantages steadily accrue. 🙁

It seems as if the disparity being depicted between them in TFU II would suggest that Vader could've beaten Galen in TFU before the Dun Moch, especially since he caught Galen off guard with that opening move that nearly broke his defence entirely.

Vader underestimating Starkiller for a second time in a row? lmao

And he only underestimated him once, lel.

Right. So again, what establishes Vader as being a match for Dooku or more skilled than Dooku as of 3BBY? Three years later, he's still only marginally more skilled than Ben Kenobi, who's a pale shadow of his RotS self. So there's no comparison with Tyranus there.

Besides that he handedly held off a new and improved version of Grievous in Karbin; is a better duelist than Galen Marek who before his prime matched an amped Shaak Ti, one of the Jedi Order's finest swords beings; and has retooled his style to be an unpredictable combination of all forms of combat, and in that respect is arguably more technically adroit than he was as an Anakin, if lacking in as much power, speed and mobility, who was at least as talented as Dooku. Like I said, he's more than capable of contending with a duelist of Dooku's caliber, and especially if Quinlan Vos was able to accomplish such a feat.

That's wrong. Gillard says he's a 9 only after joining the dark side; prior to that, he's still an 8, just better than Obi-Wan.

And obviously Obi-Wan is in Dooku's league in that they're both level 8's, but that doesn't mean there can't be a disparity. Dooku shat his pants because he was taken off-guard as much as it was because of how good they were, and again, that's from the RotS novel which doesn't happen anywhere else. Equally outlier sources have Dooku one-shotting Obi-Wan without even looking at him.

And sure he was, that's the only reason I'm not arguing Kenobi is better. The only outlier here being your understanding. 😱

And Dooku one-shotting him with a kick is because he was faster and stronger (and Kenobi aggression is his weakness). Like I said Force augmentation has to be taken into account here, yet you don't seem to be doing that at all... So is that all the prove there is that Dooku is more skilled than Kenobi? If so I remain unconvinced.

Perhaps. Most of the people who duel Vader are actually weaker than Dooku, so it won't be that big of a problem. Recall that the Count successfully lasted against Yoda, who brings to bear greater speed, strength and skill than Vader - all by noticeable margins. I do expect that he'll strain against Vader, but now we have to decide whether that'll be enough to counter the Count's edge in skill.

I would maintain that Vader's advantages are much broader here, strength, speed, stamina and Force abilities, and the Count's weaknesses more clear. Granted, Vader has never fought someone whose actually a better duelist than him bar perhaps Luke, so we don't have much of a measure in that respect, but Dooku has lost to duelists who are worse than him. Moreover I'd argue the disparity in skill is marginal, not profound, and their is a greater precedent for skill being the lesser of the factors in engagements like this. In short Dooku may be a brilliant duelist, but Vader will power through.

He seems to be staring at his blade in a brief moment of disbelief before steeling himself, at which point Anakin's blade is halted.

Another body part that would have been lost to Darth. 🙂

Hmm.. fair. Didn't notice that. Although Anakin's clearly angry then and has good reason to be after the Magnaguards reveal themselves.

I don't see how any of this changes the fact that Dooku could've been overconfident. As a Sith, he rates himself highly and it's entirely plausible that he didn't believe that Anakin could catch up to him so quickly.

The Barriss thing I blame on TCW

And no, I determined that he was still angry on the back of the fact that he had just come off a full-bloodlust assault on Dooku.

TCW has you by the balls. 🙂

And I was referring to his "blood-lusted assault" on Dooku when I made that comment.

That's irrelevant when they're leaping on top of you with a two-handed strike and you're blocking behind your head with one hand.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Just because there are a few discrepancies between the junior novel and the film (as there'd be between any two renditions of the fight) doesn't change the fact that it aligns with the film far moreso than the adult novel. That aside, even if you interpret the RotS novel as a more reliable source, the fact of the matter is that it portrays Anakin better than in anything else - he's faster and stronger than Yoda for gods' sake; that's well beyond Vader also.

Secondly, no, Gillard says that Anakin's a 9 and the best etc. as a Sith Lord. He says that prior to tapping into the dark side (as he does in the final portion of the duel with Dooku), Anakin's an 8, so that only gives us more reason to believe that he was only a match for the Count.

As far as Gillard is concerned, Dooku notes in the novelisation that Anakin's already "half-Sith" and himself states that there are disparities within the tiers, and Gillard describes him as "unbeatable" in general terms, so no, besides this one source I wouldn't really say we have any reason to believe Anakin and Dooku are equals.

If Legends takes precedence that would mean that there's no specific depiction of the fight that's outright superior in value.

Also, where does Anakin blow through Dooku's guard in the film? It seems to me that Dooku is depicted as the strongest of the three until Anakin gets enraged.

He only really appears stronger then he plays Anakin and Kenobi off one another, or otherwise uses leverage. In that respect, coming off only the better fencer imo.

Both the film and junior novel show Dooku being composed and appearing at ease in deflecting all of their strikes; this is supported by SW.com and TCSWE claiming that Dooku proved a formidable opponent to them. The RotS novel sits alone with its Anakin raping Dooku solo and the Count shitting himself at the sight of their Soresu/Djem So.

Secondary sources aren't unanimous in describing Tyranus as outclassed against Yoda at all.

And those are tertiary sources you dolt. I'm referring to the novel, the young adult novel, the comic and the script.

If Vader is a 9 (pre-suit) and he already is the best swordsman in the Jedi Order as an 8, that means he could beat Yoda. But although at the time Sidious was still unbeatable (as per Gillard) he definitely could fight Sidious head on and if he did beat Kenobi he probably would be able to kill Sidious.

This speaks volumes about his force potential.

1. Kenobi during the duel on Mustafar knows that Vader will kill him, unless he ****s up, which he did. That's immensely impressive considering Kenobi was the reigning master of Soresu and a true master of Soresu could not have his/her defenses penetrated except maybe by Juyo. That's insane for Vader, since he was a Form V Djem So specialist.

2. Gillard calls Sidious a master of every form and every weapon, and surpassed Yoda as a duelist. The fact that Vader could match and surpass Sidious demonstrates an insane force potential that amplifies his abilities so much that he goes from an 8 to a 9 that surpasses the greatest duelist in the movies according to Gillard.