The Punisher vs. Nightwing

Originally posted by deathslash
since when has sweeping your opponents legs meant ownage? Also, in that second set of scans, Frank himself says that he was just trying to get Matt's attention. I'm at work right now, but when I get home, I'll see if I can find some of their fights.

Since when has a successful attack against your opponents not meant ownage. LOL @ the mental gymnastics going on to try and discredit DD's much better fighting skills than Frank. And the links I have posted are full of DD performing much better against Pun, owning him much more than vice versa. Even when Punisher got mad and said the gloves are coming off, he still couldn't tag DD. And Punisher had prep for that encounter you mention, DD knew it was a trap, and still DD owned him.

Originally posted by deathslash
I just want to leave you with one thought though. I'd like to see you prove that dick can beat someone with the level of pain tolerance and training that Frank has when he's had trouble with the joker in the past.

lol Are you even trying? Let me introduce you to Joker: Last Laugh Issue #6. Where NW after owning a bunch of Jokerized villains including the super strong Mammoth, and dodging Joker shooting at him, beats the Joker to death

Guess who in his very first appearance as Robin dodges shots at close range from both Joker and Two-Face with twin pistols. Then proceed to one shot Joker knocking some teeth out of his mouth.

Now ask yourself these questions: Has Dick Grayson gotten faster since his first appearance as Robin at age 10? Has Dick gotten more agile and acrobatic? Has he developed more fighting skills? Has his gear gotten better? Shouldn't adult NW be better at dodging bullets than 10 year old Dick wearing a leotard?

Just to re-emphasize this point--In this thread I have been accused of cherry picking scans although, I had already posted the link to the entire comic arc.

Deathslash attempted to use a scan where Joker has a momentary upperhand, but NW dominated the rest of the fight and beat Joker to death. Now this ladies and gentleman is cherry picking and getting caught very badly.

Nightwing

Originally posted by Supermutant
Here we go again trying to move the goal posts. I never said DD always stomp Frank. I do continue to stand by my statement that DD has never lost to Frank h2h. I also like your confession that what I had already posted was accurate and not cherry picking.

Furthermore who is arguing that Frank can't give a good fight to DD? He has highs and lows like every other character, but he has never beaten DD h2h that I know of.

Even with that scan you posted DD disarmed Frank and gets more shots in. I'm glad you posted that, here is more proof that DD skill simply outclasses Pun. Once again below he avoids Pun knife attack and disarm his of his gun.

And this isn't my interpretation, its the actually battle results that some here seems bent on trying to ignore.

http://imgur.com/a/cDHR5

Originally posted by Supermutant
Just to re-emphasize this point--In this thread I have been accused of cherry picking scans although, I had already posted the link to the entire comic arc.

Deathslash attempted to use a scan where Joker has a momentary upperhand, but NW dominated the rest of the fight and beat Joker to death. Now this ladies and gentleman is cherry picking and getting caught very badly.

Originally posted by deathslash
just wanted to note, in daredevil issue 183, Frank beats Matt through the use of a tranque dart after landing the exact same amount of hits that Matt landed on him and this was after Matt attacked him from behind and initiated the fight.

👆

Originally posted by Supermutant
Here we go again trying to move the goal posts. I never said DD always stomp Frank. I do continue to stand by my statement that DD has never lost to Frank h2h. I also like your confession that what I had already posted was accurate and not cherry picking.

Furthermore who is arguing that Frank can't give a good fight to DD? He has highs and lows like every other character, but he has never beaten DD h2h that I know of.

Even with that scan you posted DD disarmed Frank and gets more shots in. I'm glad you posted that, here is more proof that DD skill simply outclasses Pun. Once again below he avoids Pun knife attack and disarm his of his gun.

And this isn't my interpretation, its the actually battle results that some here seems bent on trying to ignore.

http://imgur.com/a/cDHR5

Saying "Hardly a stomp, whatever YOUR interpretation" is an admission how, exactly?

You're the one who posted a single scan as if the fight was over. (And the link, how thoughtful. Why even post that one scan?)

That Matt had the upper hand in h2h in a single run is simply reading the work. It also flies against other showings where Frank holds his own, and Frank wasn't even put down by Matt until he was mentally out of the fight by an event that can't possibly happen in the arena (Not unless the op specifies innocenf bystanders.)

I don't know why people think Frank will just shoot Grayson in the face. He never does that, anyway. Unless its Logan, 😂

Trancs.

Body armor. Hypnos.

Originally posted by Zack M
Body armor. Hypnos.

Originally posted by Zack M
Body armor. Hypnos.

Shoot in the face.

Also, he doesn't have Hypnos anymore and it would probably backfire on Frank if he did:

Hypnos (formerly): Hypnos are implant that enable the user to hypnotize others. This was used by Richard, who already displayed mastery in it's power, despite it normally taking years to master. However, it is revered as a dangerous implant in which can open a two-way brain scramble.[43]

He did kill The Purple Man.

Originally posted by deathslash
1.nightwing was literally bloodlusted in that fight.
2. The joker has literally no hand to hand training and was still giving him a fight.
3. Does the joker (who has no training whatsoever) have the same level of skill as the punisher?
4. Does the Joker have the same level of accuracy as the punisher?
5. Is it worth noting that the joker shot several of his allies in that very same fight?

You should answer your own questions. B/c you are the one who tried to use a misleading scan, when after all NW dominated Joker and killed him.

Originally posted by cdtm
Shoot in the face.

Also, he doesn't have Hypnos anymore and it would probably backfire on Frank if he did:

He did kill The Purple Man.

When did he get rid of it?

Originally posted by cdtm
Saying "Hardly a stomp, whatever YOUR interpretation" is an admission how, exactly?

You're the one who posted a single scan as if the fight was over. (And the link, how thoughtful. Why even post that one scan?)

That Matt had the upper hand in h2h in a single run is simply reading the work. It also flies against other showings where Frank holds his own, and Frank wasn't even put down by Matt until he was mentally out of the fight by an event that can't possibly happen in the arena (Not unless the op specifies innocenf bystanders.)

There is no your interpretation, what I said happen and what actually happen on panel are the exact same things no matter how much you try to save face.

And showing DD dodging bullets from Frank constantly is relevant b/c NW has done similar his whole career. Holding you own doesn't mean you win, which is the point. Again not one single battle between Frank and DD where Frank has beaten him h2h.

Originally posted by Supermutant
You should answer your own questions. B/c you are the one who tried to use a misleading scan, when after all NW dominated Joker and killed him.

I like how all of four pages ago, punisher being tired and weaker from spending months on the run and still managing to fight evenly with a martial artist as skilled as daken (a character with a healing factor and pigstickers jutting out of his fists btw) was an example of how Nightwing can beat him and yet when Nightwing fights against a bunch of no name villains and one super strong jobber, and then struggles with a completely untrained character, it's suddenly an example of how good he is.

Originally posted by Supermutant
There is no your interpretation, what I said happen and what actually happen on panel are the exact same things no matter how much you try to save face.

You see Matt winning. I see Castle soaking up everything Matt has, and continuing to fight on until he shot an innocent.

And who said Frank could win a h2h match? He's won a few, sure, but that's not the point here. Dick is less likely to put Castle down before he's shot, because Castle's been outright beaten down in a straight fight less often then he's hung in there long enough to pull out a win, but any means available (Sonics, trancs, a big fall, whatever..)

Originally posted by cdtm
You see Matt winning.

The comic showed Matt winning.

Originally posted by cdtm
I see Castle soaking up everything Matt has, and continuing to fight on until he shot an innocent.

And he was in bad shape before he shot a bystander, DD had already used a pressue point hit to make one of his arms useless. And Punisher got frustrated b/c he couldn't hit DD and lost control. DD's agility, speed, and reflexes led him to miss so badly.

Originally posted by cdtm
And who said Frank could win a h2h match? He's won a few, sure, but that's not the point here. Dick is less likely to put Castle down before he's shot, because Castle's been outright beaten down in a straight fight less often then he's hung in there long enough to pull out a win, but any means available (Sonics, trancs, a big fall, whatever..)

Dick has bullet proof armor its been proven. Pun is in character therefore not aiming for kill shots. Dick has been evading gunfire since age 10. Dick is more skilled in h2h and has better gear.

Originally posted by deathslash
already told you that I'm at work right now. I will thank you for posting the entire fight, but the only one of that entire group of villains that he fought that's even slightly impressive is mammoth and that guy is a bit of a jobber (lost to bane before as well).

I like how all of four pages ago, punisher being tired and weaker from spending months on the run and still managing to fight evenly with a martial artist as skilled as daken (a character with a healing factor and pigstickers jutting out of his fists btw) was an example of how Nightwing can beat him and yet when Nightwing fights against a bunch of no name villains and one super strong jobber, and then struggles with a completely untrained character, it's suddenly an example of how good he is.

lol nice try. You show a very misleading scan, basically challenge me to show how NW can bypass Joker's damage soak, and then complain when I do just that. Now you are trying to use some strawman argument. Again you brought up Joker, and he isn't being used for anything other than too show how wrong you are.

Originally posted by Supermutant
lol nice try. You show a very misleading scan, basically challenge me to show how NW can bypass Joker's damage soak, and then complain when I do just that. Now you are trying to use some strawman argument. Again you brought up Joker, and he isn't being used for anything other than too show how wrong you are.

How am I using a strawman argument when you literally posted scans of daken vs punisher as an example of how dick can close the gap and beat him without even mentioning how daken is literally going for the kill and how he has a healing factor while Frank is already tired and weaker than normal from spending moths on the run (to say nothing of how getting stabbed and having no time for his injuries to heal factor into their fight). Meanwhile, when the Joker (a character with a similar level of damage soak but no training to speak of) manages to (admittedly briefly) hold his own against a bloodlusted Nightwing, it's an example of how good he is.

You also brought up that daredevil has beaten or had the upper hand against Frank while ignoring that Matt has (in multiple fights) objects to move behind or leap off of (meanwhile, this fight is happening in a completely open area). You also didn't address how Frank fairly beat Matt when he was attacked from behind in their first fight.

Look, I believe that Nightwing loses more often than not (somewhere between 6-7/10), but that doesn't mean that I think this is an easy fight for either side. It's my belief that Dick is going to have to spend far more energy dodging Frank's shots than Frank​ will spend making those shots and while I do believe that he can close the gap, I don't think that he does it before he gets hit at least once or twice (not 100% of the time at least). While Grayson may be a better martial artist, I personally believe that Castle is tough enough and just skilled enough to pull the win more often than not. We've seen Dick beat or hold his own against some pretty incredible opponents in Deathstroke, Batman, red hood, Cassandra Cain, etc, but we've also seen Frank beat or hold his own against Bullseye, Black Widow, Crossbones, Winter Soldier, Captain America, Daredevil, Spider-man, etc.