The Punisher vs. Nightwing

Started by Zack M9 pages

Originally posted by Supermutant
The comic showed Matt winning.

And he was in bad shape before he shot a bystander, DD had already used a pressue point hit to make one of his arms useless. And Punisher got frustrated b/c he couldn't hit DD and lost control. DD's agility, speed, and reflexes led him to miss so badly.

Dick has bullet proof armor its been proven. Pun is in character therefore not aiming for kill shots. Dick has been evading gunfire since age 10. Dick is more skilled in h2h and has better gear.

Yup. Frank isn't going to aim for the kill, especially someone who he doesn't know or a super hero to boot. Not happening.

Nightwing wins in a good one.

Castle wins, with ease.

Someone hasn't been following NW/Grayson. 😛

Originally posted by deathslash
🤨 where did I complain about anything? I literally just thanked you for posting the entire fight.

How am I using a strawman argument when you literally posted scans of daken vs punisher as an example of how dick can close the gap and beat him without even mentioning how daken is literally going for the kill and how he has a healing factor while Frank is already tired and weaker than normal from spending moths on the run (to say nothing of how getting stabbed and having no time for his injuries to heal factor into their fight). Meanwhile, when the Joker (a character with a similar level of damage soak but no training to speak of) manages to (admittedly briefly) hold his own against a bloodlusted Nightwing, it's an example of how good he is.

You also brought up that daredevil has beaten or had the upper hand against Frank while ignoring that Matt has (in multiple fights) objects to move behind or leap off of (meanwhile, this fight is happening in a completely open area). You also didn't address how Frank fairly beat Matt when he was attacked from behind in their first fight.

Look, I believe that Nightwing loses more often than not (somewhere between 6-7/10), but that doesn't mean that I think this is an easy fight for either side. It's my belief that Dick is going to have to spend far more energy dodging Frank's shots than Frank​ will spend making those shots and while I do believe that he can close the gap, I don't think that he does it before he gets hit at least once or twice (not 100% of the time at least). While Grayson may be a better martial artist, I personally believe that Castle is tough enough and just skilled enough to pull the win more often than not. We've seen Dick beat or hold his own against some pretty incredible opponents in Deathstroke, Batman, red hood, Cassandra Cain, etc, but we've also seen Frank beat or hold his own against Bullseye, Black Widow, Crossbones, Winter Soldier, Captain America, Daredevil, Spider-man, etc.

Your strawman argument-- You listed ways Punisher is better than Joker, when no one had even brought Joker up. Not until your misleading scan and similar thing with poster that show the scans of Punisher shooting Daken. Punisher only shot Daken after Daken closed the gap while evading gunfire and gutted him.

And you continue to ignore that Dick's suit is bulletproof.

Originally posted by Supermutant
Your strawman argument-- You listed ways Punisher is better than Joker, when no one had even brought Joker up. Not until your misleading scan and similar thing with poster that show the scans of Punisher shooting Daken. Punisher only shot Daken after Daken closed the gap while evading gunfire and gutted him.

And you continue to ignore that Dick's suit is bulletproof.

1. I brought up the joker as a way of showing that he can struggle against opponents with high damage soak.

2. I didn't post the scans of daken vs Frank. I only refuted the though that Dick would somehow do better than the guy with a healing factor, claws, and enhanced physicals who was fighting a tired punisher in a much closer area than the environment that Dick and Frank will start in.

3. You just forgot (or maybe ignored) that Matt and Frank have pretty much alwayse fought in the city (which has provided Matt with plenty of objects to jump off of. Unlike this fight), and yes, i will continue to bring this up until you address this.

4. Bulletproof doesn't mean that he's gonna completely ignore getting shot. Also, I'd like to genuinely see how many bullets it can stand up to (seriously, I'm asking you to post some scans).

5. Frank carries around armor piercing and (IIRC) adamantium rounds.

Nightwing beats the shit out of punisher. How is it even in contest?

The same way Castle vs Daredevil is, who is >>>>> Nightwing (One can argue against a few ">'s", I suppose... )

Originally posted by abhilegend
Nightwing beats the shit out of punisher. How is it even in contest?

👆

Originally posted by cdtm
The same way Castle vs Daredevil is, who is >>>>> Nightwing (One can argue against a few ">'s", I suppose... )

Daredevil isn't that much above Nightwing and nearly always beats the shit out of Matt anyway.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Daredevil isn't that much above Nightwing and nearly always beats the shit out of Matt anyway.
daredevil beats the shit out of matt?

Originally posted by deathslash
1. I brought up the joker as a way of showing that he can struggle against opponents with high damage soak.

But he didn't. He took Joker best hits after owning a bunch of supervillains. Then he beat Joker to death. And 10-year old Dick as Robin one-shotted Joker, and knocked teeth out of his mouth while evading gunfire.

Originally posted by deathslash
2. I didn't post the scans of daken vs Frank. I only refuted the though that Dick would somehow do better than the guy with a healing factor, claws, and enhanced physicals who was fighting a tired punisher in a much closer area than the environment that Dick and Frank will start in.

I know you didn't post that, but you asked why I posted the other Daken scans. Again the scan by the other poster was misleading b/c Daken evaded Punisher gunfire twice and closed the gap. And Punisher has been stalemated by Black Widow and one-shotted by DD, so Dick doesn't need claws or a healing factor to beat him. He has stalemated better like Batman, Deathstroke, and outright beat Red Hood.

Originally posted by deathslash
3. You just forgot (or maybe ignored) that Matt and Frank have pretty much alwayse fought in the city (which has provided Matt with plenty of objects to jump off of. Unlike this fight), and yes, i will continue to bring this up until you address this.

DD has dodge Frank plenty of times w/o needing something to hid behind. DD like NW is very accurate with his batons, and DD has used them disarmed Punisher. Also, DD similar to NW has used his agility, acrobatics, and speed to close any gap. Plus you keep ignoring that NW has used flares, smoke bombs, and explosive batarangs as cover in similar situations. So he doesn't need cover from the environment b/c he has and can make his own cover.

Originally posted by deathslash
4. Bulletproof doesn't mean that he's gonna completely ignore getting shot. Also, I'd like to genuinely see how many bullets it can stand up to (seriously, I'm asking you to post some scans).

Bulletproof means that if Punisher does hit him it will be in a protected area, therefore it won't cripple or disable him. I already showed one scan where he took two bullets in his back and the bullets bounce off, and didn't even slowed him down. But there are not a lot of scans of Nightwing getting shot, because he's that good at evading bulletes using agility, speed, stealth, skills, cover, and so forth.

Originally posted by deathslash
5. Frank carries around armor piercing and (IIRC) adamantium rounds.

Not standard gear, and he doesn't know NW's suit is bullet proof so he doesn't even have a reason to using armor piercing rounds.

By the way I'm still waiting on evidence that Punisher has ever beaten DD strictly h2h. You can still admit you were wrong about that. DD is at least one tier above Punisher in combat skills.

Originally posted by Supermutant

But he didn't. He took Joker best hits after owning a bunch of supervillains. Then he beat Joker to death. And 10-year old Dick as Robin one-shotted Joker, and knocked teeth out of his mouth while evading gunfire.

He owned those supervillains for all of ten seconds before the joker shot some of them and sent them outside (I suppose it's fair to assume that he fought for longer than that). Dodging gunfire as a kid is impressive, I'll give you that, but is the joker anywhere near the level of marksman that the punisher is?

I know you didn't post that, but you asked why I posted the other Daken scans. Again the scan by the other poster was misleading b/c Daken evaded Punisher gunfire twice and closed the gap. And Punisher has been stalemated by Black Widow and one-shotted by DD,
👆 you are right about that, it was a fairly misleading scan but let's not pretend that that fight was something that it wasn't. Daken started somewhere around twenty feet away from Frank (the starting distance in this fight is 82 times farther) and although he did close the distance, literally one page prior to the beginning of this fight, Frank broke his leg and in the very beginning of the comic, Frank notes that he didn't have time for any of his wounds to heal (he just finished having a run in with sentry, the hood, and a small army of resurrected supervillains), and Frank hasn't gotten much sleep after fighting microchip. He stalemated black widow when he didn't even want to fight her and when has daredevil ever oneshotted him? Maybe you're remember a fight the wrong way or maybe you're intentionally trying to make a stronger case for Nightwing, but I can recall literally no instance in which Matt oneshots Frank.

so Dick doesn't need claws or a healing factor to beat him. He has stalemated better like Batman, Deathstroke, and outright beat Red Hood.
the same could be said of the guy that's beaten spider-man on four occasions (two of which were without prep), stalemated Winter Soldier, stalemated black widow (when he didn't even want to fight), beaten Elsa Bloodstone, downed Werewolf By Night, beaten Bullseye, beaten wolverine, etc.

DD has dodge Frank plenty of times w/o needing something to hid behind. DD like NW is very accurate with his batons, and DD has used them disarmed Punisher. Also, DD similar to NW has used his agility, acrobatics, and speed to close any gap. Plus you keep ignoring that NW has used flares, smoke bombs, and explosive batarangs as cover in similar situations. So he doesn't need cover from the environment b/c he has and can make his own cover.
Do please note that most of the times that he's beaten Frank, he still needed to use objects(such as walls, boxes, etc) in order to move off of them and continue to avoid the guy that he's outright noted misses him on purpose.

👆 Finally, some examples of what Grayson can use to viably cover some of the distance without getting shot. Just want to note that Frank likely will shoot the explosive batarangs out of the air before the get close and I'm pretty sure that Frank has night vision goggles as part of his standard equipment (don't quote me on that though) so smoke might not do anything.

Bulletproof means that if Punisher does hit him it will be in a protected area, therefore it won't cripple or disable him. I already showed one scan where he took two bullets in his back and the bullets bounce off, and didn't even slowed him down. But there are not a lot of scans of Nightwing getting shot, because he's that good at evading bulletes using agility, speed, stealth, skills, cover, and so forth.
🤨 Just because he has a bullet proof suit, that doesn't mean that the bullets won't do anything to him. Hell, Jason Todd knocked him out before by shooting him in the most well armored part of his suit at close range. I can still appreciate his ability to dodge and possibly fight through getting shot though. Also, thanks for the scans, I'll take a look at them.

Not standard gear, and he doesn't know NW's suit is bullet proof so he doesn't even have a reason to using armor piercing rounds.
since when have armor piercing rounds not been his standard gear or are you talking about the adamantium rounds, because Frank has occasional just been carrying those around? Why would Frank continue to use standard rounds once he sees them bouncing off​ of Dick's suit?

By the way I'm still waiting on evidence that Punisher has ever beaten DD strictly h2h. You can still admit you were wrong about that. DD is at least one tier above Punisher in combat skills. [/B]
After looking through their fights, he's never beaten Matt just using skills, so I will concede that point, but it definitely needs to be pointed out that he's not just going h2h in this fight and he has won on more than one occasion against Matt when he's gone for it.

Originally posted by deathslash
daredevil beats the shit out of matt?

😬

Originally posted by abhilegend
😬
your words buddy.