Originally posted by Ize19
Is the Angel in that scan the same Angel that battled Spider-man as Nightcrawler?
Yes.
In fact, besides the scene I showed a little earlier, of Spider-Man pondering where "Nightcrawler" disappeared to, where "Angel" could possibly have been "hiding", and how the tell-tale "Bamf!" that always accompanies the REAL Nightcrawler when he teleports could have missed, that specific point is given lateral mention:
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Yes.In fact, besides the scene I showed a little earlier, of Spider-Man pondering where "Nightcrawler" disappeared to, where "Angel" could possibly have been "hiding", and how the tell-tale "Bamf!" that always accompanies the REAL Nightcrawler when he teleports could have missed, that specific point is given lateral mention:
So then how could he have used his flight in his fight with Spider-man, as he clearly needed wings to fly?
Originally posted by Ize19
So then how could he have used his flight in his fight with Spider-man, as he clearly needed wings to fly?
Presumably the same way the Skrull "Storm" did.
Did you actually look at the scans I posted? 😕
Here, perhaps physically texting out Johnny's self-dialogue from that scan will help:
Human Torch: "Okay, so these are skrulls -- and not real X-Men.
And what do we know about skrulls?
Only the Super-Skrull really has powers.
Normal skrulls can shape-change but that's all.
Any powers they SEEM to have are FAKED.
So let's see how these two fare if I push my speed up to nearly super-sonic ..."
(Skrulls match Johnny's flight speed.)
Human Torch "Good! They're staying right with me.
But I'm more maneuverable than any flight pack or gizmo.
So I can make a 90 degree turn ...
But my nasty-minded friends ...
... can't!"
(Skrulls crash into building with a loud "WOOMF! sound.)
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Presumably the same way the Skrull "Storm" did.
Did you actually look at the scans I posted? 😕Here, perhaps physically texting out Johnny's self-dialogue from that scan will help:
[b]Human Torch
: "Okay, so these are skrulls -- and not real X-Men.
And what do we know about skrulls?Only the Super-Skrull really has powers.
Normal skrulls can shape-change but that's all.
Any powers they SEEM to have are FAKED.
So let's see how these two fare if I push my speed up to nearly super-sonic ..."
(Skrulls match Johnny's flight speed.)
Human Torch "Good! They're staying right with me.
But I'm more maneuverable than any flight pack or gizmo.
So I can make a 90 degree turn ...
But my nasty-minded friends ...... can't!"
(Skrulls crash into building with a loud "WOOMF! sound.)
https://www.turboimagehost.com/p/34776059/image.jpg.html [/B]
Ok, so he had the potential of flight even as Nightcrawler, though since we don't actually see the gizmo, we don't know how well it works without some kind of gliding mechanism (Angel's wings, Storms cape).
Even so, we know he used super strength against Spider-man, because we heard Spider-man talking about his strength being significantly higher than Nightcrawler's, but we don't know he used flight, because the Skrull didn't credit flight with stunning Spider-man, but the twist he made that made sure he landed on top. Since it was a thought bubble, and Spider-man couldn't hear him, what cause did he have to hide the extra force his flight gadget gave him during the fall?
I think you're making the error of assuming Dark Saint posts things for the same reasons you do, much as I seem to remember you doing earlier for Stilt in this thread. I would assume you're probably equating my stance with Dareangel's, for that matter, and your tone and dialogue are consistent with someone who believes that. My stance isn't actually quite the same as his ...
I noticed in making this post that I missed this earlier one. I'm not making any assumptions, I'm just reading what each poster is writing, and taking them at their word. Seems only fair to me.
I don't know what your stance is, although judging from your early posts, you seem to agree with Dareangel that Spider-man is capable of outlasting Wolverine in a headbutt contest, (though he's started to change his mind on that) but your main interest seems to be learning things about Wolverine that were common knowledge on this site 6-10 years ago. A worthy goal, for someone who doesn't actually know those things, which is why I've gone along. But I haven't made any assumptions, simply responded to the posts as they are written.
Originally posted by Ize19
Ok, so he had the potential of flight even as Nightcrawler, though since we don't actually see the gizmo, we don't know how well it works without some kind of gliding mechanism (Angel's wings, Storms cape).Even so, we know he used super strength against Spider-man, because we heard Spider-man talking about his strength being significantly higher than Nightcrawler's, but we don't know he used flight, because the Skrull didn't credit flight with stunning Spider-man, but the twist he made that made sure he landed on top. Since it was a thought bubble, and Spider-man couldn't hear him, what cause did he have to hide the extra force his flight gadget gave him during the fall?
i have to say, as far as children's comics go, Byrne constructed a masterpiece of a "Whodunit? How?" or "Solve the Mystery!" tale here. He only hints or gives clues as to what is happening early on, switches scenes, gives clues about another sub piece, then comes back and adds more clues, rinse repeat; as if giving his audience time to figure things out, until in a twist he reveals NEARLY exactly what has been going, and concludes in similar fashion.
There are so MANY clues, in fact, it's hard to actually list them all.
First of all, it's debatable if Skrullcrawler is "really" that strong, for even the Skrull impersonating an X-Man KNOWN for his strength is apparently accomplishing what he does by device. Note carefully the following:
I was paying attention to this at first mainly because I saw what looked like Colossus drilling Captain America on the noggin, proof that people with non-adamantium skulls with LESS strength and durability than Spider-Man can nonetheless endure greater force than what Wolverine could produce with a headbutt.
(Remember, I had not read this story before DarkSaint had introduced the "Nightcrawler" scene with Spider-Man from it.)
Even more striking, no pun intended, when you consider he SEEMS to be landing that blow on Cap's temple...
If you read that carefully, though, you know there's something weird about what Colossus' punches are able to DO that normal punches, even from people stronger than Colossus, can NOT, owing to the fact that the cap shield generally absorbs, and I suppose instantly dissipates, normal concussive force.
Yet Cap is sent flying, something that seems REALLY hard to fathom given what Cap and his shield will endure a little later in this issue before the last of the skrull reveals.
For that matter, note something unusual about the properties of "Cyclops" and his eye beams:
Curiouser and curiouser...
Of course that makes perfect sense if it's a skrull ruse.
For that's not Cyclops or any of the X-Men.
So everything is NOT as it visually seems in this episode.
Colossus seems stronger than normal, tougher, and stealthier.
As if he could adjust his physique to what he needed in the moment.
Same with Storm, who, as I showed a page or few back, can now control solar winds and use the radiation of their wavelengths to bring even the mighty Shiar's Gladiator down.
Same with Nightcrawler, who can assume the form of "Angel" a.k.a. Warren Worthington at will, amaze Spider-Man with his strength, and, according to the narration, perform "impossible" mid-airflips:
Of course, if "Nightcrawler" has a FLIGHT device, as Torch suggests he must, then that "impossible" mid-air flip becomes a LOT easier to execute ...
Originally posted by Ize19
I feel like you're backtracking here. So now the claw is only inside a little bit, enough to cut the Hulk? Cause here's where you started:Then it was 90% hidden in his arm:
Then it was halfway inside:
So now you're no longer claiming an inability to see the third claw as evidence of your theory, correct? Just trying to follow the argument here.
That's called rearranging the scans. Again, here's the actual page:
So first we see blood, in the shape of the motion of the slash, then we see motion lines, which you admitted show the slash, then we unambiguously see both claws completely free of Hulk's arm, then we see his claw slashing WWH again, so it's impossible to claim that this was a case of his claws being in the same position, as they are in the opposite position of the panel immediately before them.
i see this as a grasp on straws. it doesnt matter if i used the word most, or 90% or hidden (to some degree it is), fact of the matter is, my point still stands. you see the claws inside hulk. both his arms are stuck inside hulk regardless of how many % of them. thats the point.
as i pointed out already, my claim still stands. you see slash. then you see the claws just stuck in hulk for several scans. you see green blood comming out of the slashes but it doesnt mean its a new slash. then hulk punch wolverine and wolverine while with his eyes closed, just twisting with the punch without any reaction. his claws cut hulk because of the body movement created by the punch. his fists are closed as a reflex of being knocked ouyt in the middle of a fight.
Originally posted by Dareangel
i see this as a grasp on straws. it doesnt matter if i used the word most, or 90% or hidden (to some degree it is), fact of the matter is, my point still stands. you see the claws inside hulk. both his arms are stuck inside hulk regardless of how many % of them. thats the point.as i pointed out already, my claim still stands. you see slash. then you see the claws just stuck in hulk for several scans. you see green blood comming out of the slashes but it doesnt mean its a new slash. then hulk punch wolverine and wolverine while with his eyes closed, just twisting with the punch without any reaction. his claws cut hulk because of the body movement created by the punch. his fists are closed as a reflex of being knocked ouyt in the middle of a fight.
It matters because it shows how you continually reduced your claim over time. And that's not what the scans show.
Top panel:blood. We know it's a slash because his claws weren't in that position on the last page.
Second panel: not just blood, also really big motion lines, which show this is a second slash.
Third panel: Absolutely not stuck, both sets of claws are shown completely free of WWH's arm.
Fourth panel: a third slash, which we know was a slash because the arm had just been in the completely opposite position. Also, he is clearly grimacing,not "showing no reaction."
Fifth and sixth panels: the arm in question is not visible, we get a close up of Wolverine's face so that we can see the moment of knockout.
Amount of panels where slashing claws are stuck? 0.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
i have to say, as far as children's comics go, Byrne constructed a masterpiece of a "Whodunit? How?" or "Solve the Mystery!" tale here. He only hints or gives clues as to what is happening early on, switches scenes, gives clues about another sub piece, then comes back and adds more clues, rinse repeat; as if giving his audience time to figure things out, until in a twist he reveals NEARLY exactly what has been going, and concludes in similar fashion.There are so MANY clues, in fact, it's hard to actually list them all.
First of all, it's debatable if Skrullcrawler is "really" that strong, for even the Skrull impersonating an X-Man KNOWN for his strength is apparently accomplishing what he does by device. Note carefully the following:
I was paying attention to this at first mainly because I saw what looked like Colossus drilling Captain America on the noggin, proof that people with non-adamantium skulls with LESS strength and durability than Spider-Man can nonetheless endure greater force than what Wolverine could produce with a headbutt.
(Remember, I had not read this story before DarkSaint had introduced the "Nightcrawler" scene with Spider-Man from it.)
Even more striking, no pun intended, when you consider he SEEMS to be landing that blow on Cap's temple...
If you read that carefully, though, you know there's something weird about what Colossus' punches are able to DO that normal punches, even from people stronger than Colossus, can NOT, owing to the fact that the cap shield generally absorbs, and I suppose instantly dissipates, normal concussive force.
Yet Cap is sent flying, something that seems REALLY hard to fathom given what Cap and his shield will endure a little later in this issue before the last of the skrull reveals.For that matter, note something unusual about the properties of "Cyclops" and his eye beams:
Curiouser and curiouser...
Of course that makes perfect sense if it's a skrull ruse.
For that's not Cyclops or any of the X-Men.
So everything is NOT as it visually seems in this episode.
Colossus seems stronger than normal, tougher, and stealthier.
As if he could adjust his physique to what he needed in the moment.Same with Storm, who, as I showed a page or few back, can now control solar winds and use the radiation of their wavelengths to bring even the mighty Shiar's Gladiator down.
Same with Nightcrawler, who can assume the form of "Angel" a.k.a. Warren Worthington at will, amaze Spider-Man with his strength, and, according to the narration, perform "impossible" [b]mid-air
flips:Of course, if "Nightcrawler" has a FLIGHT device, as Torch suggests he must, then that "impossible" mid-air flip becomes a LOT easier to execute ... [/B]
Ok, I know you get a big kick out of this stuff, but 90% of your post is completely irrelevant to this discussion. Yes, they cheat for the powers, acknowledged.
None of what you posted proved that the Skrull used flight to increase the impact of Spider-Man's fall, he didn't credit the damage Spider-Man took to that, even in his private thoughts on the subject, so trying to discredit the feat because he had the ability to increase the damage, but never suggested that he did, is not fair game.
Attempting to hit somebody's credibility on the basis of your unsupported speculation is even further from fair game. And trying to equate what you accuse DS of, with the willful blindness of Dareangel? You guessed it.
Originally posted by Ize19
Ok, I know you get a big kick out of this stuff, but 90% of your post is completely irrelevant to this discussion. Yes, they cheat for the powers, acknowledged.None of what you posted proved that the Skrull used flight to increase the impact of Spider-Man's fall, he didn't credit the damage Spider-Man took to that, even in his private thoughts on the subject, so trying to discredit the feat because he had the ability to increase the damage, but never suggested that he did, is not fair game.
Attempting to hit somebody's credibility on the basis of your unsupported speculation is even further from fair game. And trying to equate what you accuse DS of, with the willful blindness of Dareangel? You guessed it.
1. I'm not sure what discussion you have in mind at this point. You asked a question, I answered. You asked clarifying questions, and I answered those.
At this point I'm seriously thinking you're like one of the very eccentric people I've found who do not look at ANYTHING other than pure poster text under normal conditions, even when you know visuals, etcetera, are being given in direct response to you. I've encountered 1 or 2 of those people on the Religion forum.
Hopefully I've not encountered a third.
2. I don't think you could quote a line from the scans I posted to save your life.
Is there a particular reason you're not looking at them?
3. The exchanges between myself, Dark Saint, Philosophia, and Carver cannot be understood without realizing there is long term history among 2 or 3 of each of us. You are completely off base here, and do not realize it.
4. As for Dareangel, I'm not sure he's being willfully blind or not.
It's not always easy to see things from someone else's point of view.
For instance I wondered at some of the hostility I got from Philosophia in another thread where he challenged me to a "Get out of Dodge" Battlezone. Then he made a verbal slip which told me he had been confusing me with ANOTHER poster, much more acid-tongued than myself, with whom he'd apparently had some friction. Actually, a lot of friction, from what I can tell. Mystery, largely, solved.
I'll give more attention to some of the above in the near future, if time permits.
Right now, since people seem of the mind that Wolverine is a little "brick" that cannot be knocked down without significant damage to one's own body without the striker possessing superhuman strength and durability:
(Cyclops, after a contentious encounter with his long-lost brother Havok, striking Logan down with a single backhand punch.)
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
1. I'm not sure what discussion you have in mind at this point. You asked a question, I answered. You asked clarifying questions, and I answered those.
At this point I'm seriously thinking you're like one of the very eccentric people I've found who do not look at ANYTHING other than pure poster text under normal conditions, even when you know visuals, etcetera, are being given in direct response to you. I've encountered 1 or 2 of those people on the Religion forum.
Hopefully I've not encountered a third.
Here's the discussion: Did Skrull Nightcrawler use his flight to throw Spider-man to the ground with greater force than a normal fall, or was Spider-man stunned simply by the height of the fall and the weight of Skrull Nightcrawler. Not one of your scans addressed this, except to suggest he used flight to flip over him, nothing suggested he used it to increase their downward momentum.
2. I don't think you could quote a line from the scans I posted to save your life.
Is there a particular reason you're not looking at them?
"Sorry X-Man. But if you've suddenly developed vampiric tendencies, I may have to get decidedly nasty." There, happy? I'm looking at them, but I'm looking for your answer to my questions, not these tangents you love so much. How can you say Nightcrawler used flight to increase the impact, when we see his thoughts explaining that it was Spider-man's position that resulted in his being stunned?
3. The exchanges between myself, Dark Saint, Philosophia, and Carver cannot be understood without realizing there is long term history among 2 or 3 of each of us. You are completely off base here, and do not realize it.
I'm not going to get into your history, but in this thread? He hasn't done anything to justify claims of dishonesty. That's all I have to say on that matter.
4. As for Dareangel, I'm not sure he's being willfully blind or not.
It's not always easy to see things from someone else's point of view.
For instance I wondered at some of the hostility I got from Philosophia in another thread where he challenged me to a "Get out of Dodge" Battlezone. Then he made a verbal slip which told me he had been confusing me with ANOTHER poster, much more acid-tongued than myself, with whom he'd apparently had some friction. Actually, a lot of friction, from what I can tell. Mystery, largely, solved.
Great story, I'm glad that worked out. As for Dareangel, I've blown up the images, drawn arrows to the claws, shown the complete scan with the panels in order, and he's misread them, rearranged them, claimed to be unable to see what's clearly on the page... at what point do I stop giving him the benefit of the doubt? Because I really don't like taking that away, but I've a bout reached my limit.
I'll give more attention to some of the above in the near future, if time permits.Right now, since people seem of the mind that Wolverine is a little "brick" that cannot be knocked down without significant damage to one's own body without the striker possessing superhuman strength and durability:
(Cyclops, after a contentious encounter with his long-lost brother Havok, striking Logan down with a single backhand punch.)
It was a cheap shot that he didn't see coming. In this contest, there are no surprises, it's as straightforward as it gets. Had Wolverine been ready, he would have withstood the blow, and Cyclops would have broken his hand. Plus, this was years before the first mention of Wolverine having an "unbreakable" skeleton, let alone an adamantium one.
I remember an episode where Cyclops knocked out Wolverine with a single shot to the head. He used his eye beams that time. Pretty sure that was Dark Phoenix saga. While I'm searching for that, I'll provide a bonus match Cyke had with Wolvie. Useful, if nothing else, at proving human-level strength and reaction times and skill are sufficient to surprise and take and keep Wolvie off balance:
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I remember an episode where Cyclops knocked out Wolverine with a single shot to the head. He used his eye beams that time. Pretty sure that was Dark Phoenix saga. While I'm searching for that, I'll provide a bonus match Cyke had with Wolvie. Useful, if nothing else, at proving human-level strength and reaction times and skill are sufficient to surprise and take and keep Wolvie off balance:
Thanks for providing the full context. Unfortunately, the full context completely undoes your point. Wolverine was having an existential crisis, was completely shaken, and had only started to recover by the end. Again, this is a headbutt contest. You can post scans of Wolverine getting judo tossed ad naseum, it doesn't prove Wolverine falls before Spider-man in this thread.
Originally posted by Ize19
Thanks for providing the full context. Unfortunately, the full context completely undoes your point ...
I generally don't post with only one purpose in mind, Ize.
Notice the mention of Wolverine having a 3 million dollar adamantium skeleton in what I just submitted?
Incidentally, I found the Cyclops one-shot I was looking for:
Source: Uncanny X-Men #175
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
I don't think you have any purpose, to be brutally honest.
Like I said, Sebatian Shaw wins that contest, Stilt:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t641997.html
Come at me.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I generally don't post with only one purpose in mind, Ize.Notice the mention of Wolverine having [b]a 3 million dollar adamantium skeleton
in what I just submitted?Incidentally, I found the Cyclops one-shot I was looking for:
Source: Uncanny X-Men #175 [/B]
Right, in UXM 127. Your first scan was UXM 97. It took place four years before that second set of scans.
Another blindside. Still inapplicable.
Originally posted by Ize19
It matters because it shows how you continually reduced your claim over time. And that's not what the scans show.Top panel:blood. We know it's a slash because his claws weren't in that position on the last page.
Second panel: not just blood, also really big motion lines, which show this is a second slash.
Third panel: Absolutely not stuck, both sets of claws are shown completely free of WWH's arm.
Fourth panel: a third slash, which we know was a slash because the arm had just been in the completely opposite position. Also, he is clearly grimacing,not "showing no reaction."
Fifth and sixth panels: the arm in question is not visible, we get a close up of Wolverine's face so that we can see the moment of knockout.
Amount of panels where slashing claws are stuck? 0.
it does not. my point still stands as it is. the claw is stuck inside hulk regerdless of how much of it exactly.
i am not talking about the previous page. i am talking about the second page from the first panel and so on. whi only from the second page? because we are counting after the first punch to see its effects.
i am sorry there are no motion lines in the second panel. those are blood lines as in blood comming out of him slashes.
third panel as i pointed out already, we see wolverine with his eyes closed getting punched to the side, thise basically makes his body twist and his claws are out. notice wolverine doesnt even slash hulk he is just with his arms to the side, this means he is already beaten and not he is twisting with the punches like a rag doll.
fourth panel again same thing. wolverine is punches, look at his head leaned back with 0 expression. he is out. you believe that when he is out with his head leaning back he can still fight? its just his body twisting with the punches as well as his claws slashing hulk here and there with again, the movement of the body.
fifth and sixth panel wolverine is endeed out like he was before. nothing new here its only a close up on him.
stuck in 2 panels, other times they are free because of the body twisting with the punches.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Like I said, Sebatian Shaw wins that contest, Stilt:http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t641997.html
Come at me.
And? Making a spite thread makes you proud?
