Vitiate is the most powerful Dark Sider ever.

1. That was Temp's argument. Regardless, being unburdened by archaic Sith teachings can be said of Nihilus as well, yet he is still a Lord of the Sith.

2. Actually, Traya mentions that the Sith is a belief way back in the mid game, yet she still calls Nihilus a Lord of the Sith.

Nihilus' interest was not in reforming the Sith either, or frankly, even leading them. He enslaved a group and had them serve under him for his own ends, nothing more; he would've consumed them in time if Kreia's narrative is accurate.

3. Right, so if it's referring to Valkorion in the present tense, it doesn't refer to "Sith" in the context of a Pureblood, but rather an adherent of the Order. So Valkorion remains an entity of the Sith Order. Note that the term "Ancient Sith" refers to an Order also, not a species.

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. That was Temp's argument. Regardless, being unburdened by archaic Sith teachings can be said of Nihilus as well, yet he is still a Lord of the Sith.

2. Actually, Traya mentions that the Sith is a belief way back in the mid game, yet she still calls Nihilus a Lord of the Sith.

Nihilus' interest was not in reforming the Sith either, or frankly, even leading them. He enslaved a group and had them serve under him for his own ends, nothing more; he would've consumed them in time if Kreia's narrative is accurate.

3. Right, so if it's referring to Valkorion in the present tense, it doesn't refer to "Sith" in the context of a Pureblood, but rather an adherent of the Order. So Valkorion remains an entity of the Sith Order. Note that the term "Ancient Sith" refers to an Order also, not a species.

Tenebrae's story developed in a similar way.

Doesn't matters if Tenebrae was referred to as an ancient Sith entity in a codex entry. This is the final description:

Over the millennia, Valkorion wore many faces and names: Lord Vitiate; Emperor of the Sith; Eternal Emperor of Zakuul. For centuries upon centuries, he shaped and manipulated galactic events, bending the arc of history to his will during his obsessive quest for immortality. A being of unfathomable power and insatiable appetite, he transcended death multiple times, shedding his physical shells as they were discovered, defeated, and destroyed... only to return in another form.

From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Knights of the Eternal Throne: Codex Entry titled "The Fall of Valkorion."😉

---

"Valkorion. Tenebrae. Vitiate. Emperor of the Sith. My low-born son has worn many masks." - Lord Dramath

---

Same cannot be said for Darth(s) Nihilus and Traya; they might be far from being ideal adherents to Sith philosophy but they did not establish a new identity and officially renounce their allegiance to Sith.

Valkorion was referred to as an ancient Sith in KotFE. 😂

Originally posted by AncientPower
He evidently uses every aspect of the Force, given he's strongly implied to be the reason Nathema is healing then he's obviously not doing so via the dark side.

Are you truly this moronic?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Valkorion was referred to as an ancient Sith in KotFE. 😂

Valkorion was referred to as an ancient Sith entity in a codex entry of KoTFE but this is context-constrained description. Greater reality is that Tenebrae wore different masks at different points in time and Sith Emperor was just one of them, as established in KoTET.

Which were already present in KotFE.

Valkorion is an ancient Sith entity with the power to possess and control the bodies of others, using them as puppets to enforce his will on the galaxy. The Immortal Emperor is his latest mask and Zakuul his greatest, most ambitious endeavor: an idealistic playground where he can shed his past and experience a new life unburdened by archaic Sith teachings.

The one where explicitly being stated to be a sith doesn't make you a sith

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Valkorion was referred to as an ancient Sith in KotFE. 😂

Too bad the official revelations came in KOTET.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
>Valkorion can use non-dark side powers
>Valkorion can use every aspect of the Force.

Are you truly this moronic?

So him learning every Force technique from Revan, as well as evolving an entirely new way of drawing on the Force, is irrelevant?

😂

Well is body is outside teh galaxy, roting away he have ascended to near god-hood we can say that.

"So him learning every Force technique from Revan, as well as evolving an entirely new way of drawing on the Force, is irrelevant?"

As A Revan expert he only teach a few of them dark side technics and he did it in a prett fast and expeditive way, still Revan gain a massive amoun of knowledge from this but it is a small portion compare to what he have learned in teh trayus academmy, and Even Then Revan still continue to seek knowledge in doer to be able tod estroy Vitiate....

STill Revan gain a dozen of level out that......

AP, I don't have the time to commit to a proper response until summer, but I will say this: It doesn't matter whether Vitiate absorbed the nexus or not. You are falsely thinking that "the largest dark side nexus the galaxy would ever see" somehow equates to it being the most potent, which it doesn't. So whether Vitiate has it in his doesn't make him more powerful than Palpatine.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Too bad the official revelations came in KOTET.

So him learning every Force technique from Revan, as well as evolving an entirely new way of drawing on the Force, is irrelevant?

😂

Originally posted by SunRazer
You're misinterpreting Temp's argument.

He's not citing the "dark mastery" quote to show that Valk is a Sith. You're right in that there is no inherent connection between dark siders and Sith; the abundance of non-Sith dark side organizations is a testament to that. Temp was citing that to prove that Valkorion was lying when he said he was "beyond light or dark", which destroys his credibility. If that's the case, how can we trust his word on not being a Sith anymore?

Nihilus "rejected" Sith teachings and their code as well, or at least showed no interest in them, yet he is factually and objectively a Sith Lord. Certainly Traya thinks as much (and goes so far as to say that he cares nothing for the Sith), yet even Traya recognized him as a Sith Lord.

Also, on the topic of the Sith entity quote, it says "Valkorion [b]is an ancient Sith entity", not "was", meaning that it's referring to him in the present tense. And in the present tense, he is clearly not a biological Pureblood, but a human. That suggests that it is referring to the Sith Order, not the race of Purebloods since Valkorion clearly isn't one. Vitiate hasn't even adopted a Pureblood Voice in at least decades, if not longer. [/B]

👆

Originally posted by SunRazer
So Valkorion remains an entity of the Sith Order.

He literally tried to destroy the Sith Order tho.

So did Bane.

Unlike Bane, he made no attempts to remake it.

Well, having not yet actually destroyed the Sith, he couldn't. Bane made no attempts at reform until he had destroyed the Sith.

I agree that Valk's rhetoric certainly doesn't make him sound like a Sith, but we know his word to be unreliable and the codex states that he is a Sith. The only "support" from the codex is the claim that he is "unburdened by ancient Sith teachings", something applicable to Bane or Nihilus also. And the criteria being set out by users here also applies to either Bane or Nihilus (or both), both of whom we know to be Sith.

Do you really believe Valkorion is a Sith? I don't know why they put down Sith, but frankly I think it was an error or mistake. The writers blatantly want the audience to at least think Valkorion is beyond that of the Sith, so a codex from the first chapter saying he is a Sith makes absolutely no sense, especially from a story that is all about going beyond the Jedi or the Sith. I fully understand your argument from a factual perspective, but you got to admit you're throwing logic completely out the window here.

I admit I'm sympathetic to the view but have no factual basis to believe it. In some of my recent posts I've made provisions for the viewpoint that he isn't a Sith, though that doesn't change his standing much for me (I still hold him below TPM Sidious). The problem is that once you exclude Valkorion from the Sith, you can't take advantage of the Force and Destiny quote stating that Palpatine's power "may be unrivallled in history of the Sith". So really, we've only got a difference of him moving from below Plagueis to what, on par with him?

And in the end, we still have no factual basis, whether on direct evidence or the precedent of related scenarios, to actually prove that he isn't a Sith. Versus clear-cut, direct evidence saying that he's a Sith. It's a subjective analysis of holistic intent and putting faith in factually dishonest character claims versus an objective quote proclaiming him to be a Sith.

So while I understand your viewpoint, as it stands, I'm not going to support it.

The primary reason I don't consider Valkorion a Sith is legitimately because I don't think he is a Sith. Limitations due to accolades is secondary.

Shocker. In the absence of supportive evidence, obviously your only ground would be your own opinion. And again, as sympathetic as I am towards it, the pull of objective, factual statements takes precedence.

That's not to say sourcebook statements haven't been shown to be wrong before, or even outright inane from the outset, but the arguments made thus far aren't very convincing since none of them can't be applied to other Sith Lords like Nihilus or Bane.