Originally posted by nfactor1995
It's like talking to a wall lol. No matter what you tell him or what quotes you provide, nothing will convince him that Valkorion isn't a Sith, because it would contradict his anti-Valk pro-PT agenda.
This isn't hard. None of the quotes have been offered say valk isn't a sith. We have an objective out of universe quote saying valk is a sith.
So mental gymnastics, and misinterpretations aside, valk is a sith.
Try to understand that rejecting archaic sith teachings isn't the same as not being a sith. BANE rejected archaic sith teachings, he's still a sith, SIDIOUS reject archaic sith teachings, he's still a sith.
Valk not being the sith emperor is because he stopped being the sith emperor, It doesn't mean he's not a sith.
There's no need to make up contradictions that don't exist.
Valk is explicitly stated to be a sith, and thus he's a sith. End of story
Speaking of walls Nfactor I'd love to hear how you plan on wiggling valk out of this one:
"Valkorion is an ancient Sith entity"
https://swtor.jedipedia.net/en/cdx/valkorion
1.The nexus is created by the ritual which he orchestrated, the nexus is stated to have consumed all life, every iota, from Sith to bugs. Therefore the Sith Emperor must have absorbed this nexus in order to gain anything from the Ritual in the first place. You aren't making any sense here. The Emperor created the nexus and absorbed it into himself.
2.Given this is repeated numerous times it clearly isn't just hyperbole, which, given the above, is quite clearly within the realms of explicitly stated fact.
3.Nihilus and Surik were side effects of Malachor V's MSG detonation, Vitiate was the focal point. The difference is massive.
4.Vitiate has the nexus within him, not the Void left over, Scourge sees the nexus within him and the Void in the Force it leaves behind after he's done draining.
5.Vitiate's anchor was the Temple on Yavin IV, where he was resurrected but without his full strength. He went to Ziost to absorb the Sith population and there regained his strength. Then after doing so dealt Ziost the same fate as Nathema, but this time he did it without the need of any aid nor even a physical form.
Which in and of itself points to how vastly powerful he was after Nathema. 8,000 Sith Lords aided him, and a ten day ritual, the most complex ever performed, to boot. That's an ansolutely immense amount of dark side power. Yet he doesn't need any help whatsoever to perform the same thing again, as a spirit.
Actually realise this and you'll come to the conclusion that he obviously did absorb 8,000 Sith Lords, hence not requiring them a second time.
6.His feats whilst possessing the Outlander. . . where he's suffered a physical death and had to escape using the Outlander.
Oh and Valkorion soundly defeated Arcann, unless you've forgotten, ripping through his Force shield and completely overloading every ship in the vicinity of the spire, with the excess discharge.
When Valkorion regained his former power via Vaylin's spirit and transformed the Outlander into a host powerful enough to withstand his strength(in KOTFE the Outlander nearly dies almost every time Valkorion's spirit intervenes), he's capable of nigh stomping the Outlander, Vaylin and Arcann combined. The only reason they won is because of the uber holocron, which was only after Lord Dramath wounded Valkorion's spirit with a suicidal attack.
Seriously, play the game.
7.Except Valkorion's ever-growing power comes due to his insatiable hunger to gain more and more energy, a living embodiment of the dark side, by its very nature, is a nihilistic and pervasive Force. Nihilus is one of them, though isn't directly stated.
You can't be more powerful than a manifestation of the dark side, only the more and more damage and death you cause continues to sustain your energy and power.
Now you can argue that Palpatine's state was even more chaotic, which you have, but I'd counter with the fact that Revan perceives Vitiate as a physical shell barely holding his energy together. He was pulsating waves of palpable dark side energy and even reduced the connections of the Force of any Jedi to null with his mere presence. Revan being Revan countered that with drawing from the balance of the Force.
8.Except that you're still not getting it, he's always been Tenebrae, he merely assumed mantles over civilisations he used at his whim to further his ascension to godhood. Darth Sidious did the same thing, even Plagueis did it.
Why you're insisting on holding outdated information against him is the real question here. This is like stating Vader can't be Anakin Skywalker because in A New Hope, he's stated to have killed him.
Knights of the Eternal Throne, as well as Lead Writer Hall Hood have both confirmed this is the factual case. It's called a bloody plot twist.
Yet we all know the real reason why people must cling to accolades. Because as soon as it comes down to feats, all of a sudden the case is not even close to definitive.
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Speaking of walls Nfactor I'd love to hear how you plan on wiggling valk out of this one:
"Valkorion is an ancient Sith entity"
https://swtor.jedipedia.net/en/cdx/valkorion
It's explicitly stated that he's no longer following Sith teachings and has moved on. Therefore by definition, he is no longer a Sith. "Sheds his past and experience a new life unburdened by archaic Sith teachings." Similarly to if a Jedi leaves the Jedi Order and/or rejects the Jedi Code and teachings, he is no longer a Jedi. Don't get stuck on the word "archaic." It is clearly referring to ALL Sith teachings, especially given how Valkorion views the entirety of the Sith Empire and their philosophy as archaic, limited, flawed, etc. hence the whole reason he created the Zakuul Empire.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
An apt description for Darth Bane, too.
Darth Bane moved past the teachings of Kaan's Brotherhood and followed the teachings of people like Darth Revan. Whereas Valkorion has moved entirely beyond Sith teachings. That was the whole point of the Eternal Empire and was focused on in multiple chapters.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
An apt description for Darth Bane, too.
Darth Bane took teachings of ancient Sith to heart and abandoned the ways of brotherhood of his time. He also noted that Sith - by nature - are violent and would rather hinder each other in large numbers. Therefore, he decided to restrict number of Sith to two only (Rule of Two in the nutshell).
Tenebrae did no such thing and Sith were just a means to an end to him. Here: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f6/t642058.html
Lord Dramath's judgement is up to the mark. He saw in his son a major threat to Sith and his assessment turned out to be correct.
Originally posted by nfactor1995
Darth Bane moved past the teachings of Kaan's Brotherhood and followed the teachings of people like Darth Revan.
Yep, those would indeed be the teachings he moved beyond. He's still Sith.
Originally posted by nfactor1995
Whereas Valkorion has moved entirely beyond Sith teachings. That was the whole point of the Eternal Empire and was focused on in multiple chapters.
Oh, I'm well acquainted with the storyline. But you're reading far too much into Valkorion's propaganda. It's a load of bullshit. Not only does the Codex still identify him as a Sith entity, the KOTET website flat out says his Force mastery is "dark" even though Valkorion himself says he's beyond all that.
Jesus Christ. This shouldn't be hard to understand.
Valkorion rejected the Sith teachings. He is not affiliated with them, and he does not follow their code: he's 'unburdened' by them. Unlike Bane or Sidious, he never changed their code, or altered the philosophy of the Sith in any way - he actively rejected their teachings. Therefore, he is not Sith.
I also find it hilarious people are referencing his mastery of the dark side as evidence for him being Sith. He's a Pureblood in origin - his species have a massive affinity for the dark side, and, if you need further proof, look at any Dark Jedi who has ever existed in the history of SW - they used the dark side, but they weren't Sith. The same is true for Valkorion.
The 'ancient Sith entity' quote refers to his origins, and not his present status - in simpler terms, he is Sith in origin with context to the species, not the organization.
It's pretty clear he isn't Sith and anyone who says otherwise is in denial.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Yep, those would indeed be the teachings he moved beyond. He's still Sith.Oh, I'm well acquainted with the storyline. But you're reading far too much into Valkorion's propaganda. It's a load of bullshit. Not only does the Codex still identify him as a Sith entity, the KOTET website flat out says his Force mastery is "dark" even though Valkorion himself says he's beyond all that.
Arcann and Valkorion both appear to be dark side users, at least somewhat. That doesn't inherently make them Sith. The Rakata drew on the dark side exclusively and they weren't Sith. Heck the fact that the Knights of Zakuul and the Scions exist and aren't Sith/dark side should indicate that Valk isn't a Sith or following Sith teachings, otherwise he would've, you know, turned them into Sith-like organizations and taught them Sith ways.
Originally posted by slayne
Jesus Christ. This shouldn't be hard to understand.Valkorion rejected the Sith teachings. He is not affiliated with them, and he does not follow their code: he's 'unburdened' by them. Unlike Bane or Sidious, he never changed their code, or altered the philosophy of the Sith in any way - he actively rejected their teachings. Therefore, he is not Sith.
I also find it hilarious people are referencing his mastery of the dark side as evidence for him being Sith. He's a Pureblood in origin - his species have a massive affinity for the dark side, and, if you need further proof, look at any Dark Jedi who has ever existed in the history of SW - they used the dark side, but they weren't Sith. The same is true for Valkorion.
The 'ancient Sith entity' quote refers to his origins, and not his present status - in simpler terms, he is Sith in origin with context to the species, not the organization.
It's pretty clear he isn't Sith and anyone who says otherwise is in denial.
You're misinterpreting Temp's argument.
He's not citing the "dark mastery" quote to show that Valk is a Sith. You're right in that there is no inherent connection between dark siders and Sith; the abundance of non-Sith dark side organizations is a testament to that. Temp was citing that to prove that Valkorion was lying when he said he was "beyond light or dark", which destroys his credibility. If that's the case, how can we trust his word on not being a Sith anymore?
Nihilus "rejected" Sith teachings and their code as well, or at least showed no interest in them, yet he is factually and objectively a Sith Lord. Certainly Traya thinks as much (and goes so far as to say that he cares nothing for the Sith), yet even Traya recognized him as a Sith Lord.
Also, on the topic of the Sith entity quote, it says "Valkorion is an ancient Sith entity", not "was", meaning that it's referring to him in the present tense. And in the present tense, he is clearly not a biological Pureblood, but a human. That suggests that it is referring to the Sith Order, not the race of Purebloods since Valkorion clearly isn't one. Vitiate hasn't even adopted a Pureblood Voice in at least decades, if not longer.
Except he uses esoteric, non-dark side techniques repeatedly throughout KOTFE. He mastered the Dark Side of the Force to its greatest degree and then began using Force techniques beyond the Dark Side, flow walking and teleportation come to mind.
Not that it matters given the trove of OOU sources that state he isn't a Sith and never was, Sith Emperor Vitiate is just a mask he used to manipulate the Sith Empire towards his goal. That goal being made clearly obvious throughout HoT Act III.
Speaking of which, the claim that Vitiate required billions of deaths to fuel his Dark Ritual was debunked by Hall Hood. Vitiate only needed one major act of death to fuel the ritual, and he would have been successful. Pretty much the closest anybody ever got to literally killing the Force and becoming a God. 🙂
Originally posted by SunRazer
You're misinterpreting Temp's argument.If that's the case, how can we trust his word on not being a Sith anymore?
Nihilus "rejected" Sith teachings and their code as well, or at least showed no interest in them, yet he is factually and objectively a Sith Lord. Certainly Traya thinks as much (and goes so far as to say that he cares nothing for the Sith), yet even Traya recognized him as a Sith Lord.
Of course, you're right about Nihilus canonically being a Sith, but, unlike Valkorion, Nihilus wasn't actively working against them - he was their leader. The fact that Valkorion tried to destroy, not reform, the Sith Empire is proof enough that he isn't Sith.
Also, on the topic of the Sith entity quote, it says "Valkorion is an ancient Sith entity", not "was", meaning that it's referring to him in the present tense. And in the present tense, he is clearly not a biological Pureblood, but a human. That suggests that it is referring to the Sith Order, not the race of Purebloods since Valkorion clearly isn't one. Vitiate hasn't even adopted a Pureblood Voice in at least decades, if not longer.