Originally posted by AzrongerI don't know, it definatly seems like ur stating it as a fact.
I never presented it as fact that he used Telepathy to do this; I merely have stated that it is the most straightforward conclusion I could draw from "using the dark side to control everybody." If you were asked to interpret the following piece of text without any supplementary material..."A Jedi can use the Force to lift a stone"
...I'd bet a hundred bucks you'd arrive at Telekinesis as the most straightforward conclusion, since the Force power you use to lift objects is known as Telekinesis. Similarly, the dark side power used to control other people is Dominate Mind, which falls under Telepathy. You can't use Force Lightning to control others; you can't use Force Rage, nor Force Drain, nor Force Scream or any other ability that I am aware of.
Would you accuse someone of fallacious debating if he passed Yoda using TK here as fact? I know I wouldn't, since it's simply the most straightforward conclusion to make, rather than suggesting it was just really strong wind or something along those lines.
"Argument from ignorance. Simply because he didn't doesn't mean he can't. And based on this quote, he clearly can."-Azronger
The lifting the stone question is a false comparison. There are several ways to enslave someone thru the darkside and depth in variety of powers isn't something palpatines lacking. -
"Palpatine has spent decades studying the most arcane and esoteric Jedi disciplines. It is believed that he has mastered nearly all the known powers, previously unknown powers, and devises new ones at his pleasure"
Tp is one way, also sorcery, rituals, even places strongly corrupted by the darkside such as byss have enslaved people to palpatine just by going there.
"Throughout the worlds submissive to the Empire, Byss is renowned as a paradise, whose siren call multitudes to willingly apply for emigration to its shores. Once there, wrapped in the power of the dark side, the immigrants become completely submissive, their life energy forever enslaved to the mind that would devour a galaxy."
As soon as there there they're completly submissive, and their life energies are enslaved to him. Now r u going to argue that he enslaved their life essences thru tp?
U said in an earlier post that because the text doesn't have the word ritual in it then it's not a possibility, yet nowhere does it say tp yet u r clinging to that. The logic there is awful.
The yoda tk is another terrible comparison. With the clip, obviously there is visual evidence. Yoda lifting his hands, showing obvious mental strain, and the object moving in correlation with his hand gestures all indicate tk.
Originally posted by AzrongerAppointing faithful darkside acolytes to high and influential positions throughout the galaxy and having them all answer to him. Very straightforward. Well within his shown abilities. Favors occams razor. Bada bing. Bada boom.
Unless someone can come up with a reasonable alternative that I am unable to debunk,
How else would you control someone with the dark side?The problem is that you are equivocating the term control to apply in two separate contexts. In your quote, it is referring to Palpatine's plan to establish a new form of government. Government, by its very definition, implies a means of controlling people who exist under it. Autocracy, for example, is a form of government where the state has absolute control. Here, simply having an autocratic styled government premised on dark side principles and ran by darkside appointees would be sufficient to "control everything and everyone through the darkside."
What's more, we run into an additional problem with your interpretation. The quote says "everything and everyone in the galaxy." You say Palpatine would be actively TP'ing everyone, but what about everything? Would Palpatine actively be TP'ing rocks, rivers, clouds, buildings, stars and black holes? How about TP'ing the laws of SW physics? Those fall under "everything" in the galaxy. Or perhaps you mean to suggest TP for people and TK for everything else? Wouldn't this quote not merely be a case of a grand TP feat, but proof that DE Palpatine is an abstract/universal tier combatant?
No, he's thinking of making a new government premised on the darkside and with him at the helm. No indication of it being a TP and ample absurdities invited if we assume it is.
As such, there is no need for me to make any sort of explanations for Palpatine not using it when he could've.The 'as such' doesn't follow. Multiple posters have suggested that the quote is hyperbole at best. Pretty reasonable alternative too in light DE Palpatine never once demonstrating TP power of the magnitude you're implying. So yes, there is ample need to make a explanations for Palpatine not using what he could have.
@Dark-Kenshin
Originally posted by AzrongerLike I said, grasping. 🙂
But people can 🙂 And for those things he can't use TP to control, he'll use other powers like TK 👆
Please provide said quotes. We'll see then.
Taken from Dark Empire SourcebookWhatever they [Palpatine's dark side adepts] do, they enact the Emperor's will and policies with his total trust and confidence because their link to him through the Force allows him to always observe them. Before the Emperor's defeat, many had been gathered into the Imperial Ruling Council. It had been planned that eventually these adepts would replace the system of Moffs, Grand Moffs and governors, instituting a Dark Side Theocracy.
With his adepts securely in power, they were to participate in experiments on the "Science of Darkness", feeding on and draining the life essence of the citizenry.
Taken from Book of SithIn time, the channeled anger of the dark side will prove just as destructive as the Death Star. There will no longer be a need for costly constructions.
Originally posted by Raptor22
I don't know, it definatly seems like ur stating it as a fact."Argument from ignorance. Simply because he didn't doesn't mean he can't. And based on this quote, he clearly can."-Azronger
It may have come off as that way, I admit.
The lifting the stone question is a false comparison. There are several ways to enslave someone thru the darkside and depth in variety of powers isn't something palpatines lacking. -"Palpatine has spent decades studying the most arcane and esoteric Jedi disciplines. It is believed that he has mastered nearly all the known powers, previously unknown powers, and devises new ones at his pleasure"
Tp is one way, also sorcery, rituals, even places strongly corrupted by the darkside such as byss have enslaved people to palpatine just by going there.
"Throughout the worlds submissive to the Empire, Byss is renowned as a paradise, whose siren call multitudes to willingly apply for emigration to its shores. Once there, wrapped in the power of the dark side, the immigrants become completely submissive, their life energy forever enslaved to the mind that would devour a galaxy."
As soon as there there they're completly submissive, and their life energies are enslaved to him. Now r u going to argue that he enslaved their life essences thru tp?
U said in an earlier post that because the text doesn't have the word ritual in it then it's not a possibility, yet nowhere does it say tp yet u r clinging to that. The logic there is awful.
Yes, I am going to argue it was through TP ans Drain Life. Simply by going there wouldn't enslave them to Palpatine's mind if Palpatine himself wasn't actively influencing them, which he is:
After choosing Byss as his resort world, Palpatine lured eager nobles to the planet—then used his dark powers to enslave its people, channeling their life energies for use in his own vile experiments within the fell Imperial Citadel.
--The Essential Atlas
Your other points are fair, though. However, the fact that he could control everyone in the galaxy is impressive enough, irregardless of whether it was a ritual or some other Force power. It certainly solidifies him as a vastly more accomplished Force wielder than for example Valkorion, who required centuries to pull of a galactic ritual with billions of sacrifices etc. while Palpatine can apparently do it anytime he wants; and he hasn't shown any sort of applications with galactic level Force abilities on a personal level.
The yoda tk is another terrible comparison. With the clip, obviously there is visual evidence. Yoda lifting his hands, showing obvious mental strain, and the object moving in correlation with his hand gestures all indicate tk.
Yes, this is what I was talking about. It is just so damn obvious it's TK, so it'd be asinine to accuse someone of fallacious debating because they point out the obvious.
Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
Appointing faithful darkside acolytes to high and influential positions throughout the galaxy and having them all answer to him. Very straightforward. Well within his shown abilities. Favors occams razor. Bada bing. Bada boom.
It's not at all within his well-shown abilities at all. That kind of government would take an inconcievable amount of dark side devotees to run properly. Even 10 000 Jedi Knights weren't enough to maintain order on their own, much less govern every single position of power and job and whatever else that requires overseeing, and Palpatine doesn't even possess that many Adepts.
Regardless, he'd first have to crush all opposing governments before implementing what you propose, which isn't in his capabilities as of the now, so your interpretation doesn't align with the quote and can thus be dismissed.
The problem is that you are equivocating the term control to apply in two separate contexts. In your quote, it is referring to Palpatine's plan to establish a new form of government. Government, by its very definition, implies a means of controlling people who exist under it. Autocracy, for example, is a form of government where the state has absolute control. Here, simply having an autocratic styled government premised on dark side principles and ran by darkside appointees would be sufficient to "control everything and everyone through the darkside."
No, that'd be controlling everything and everyone through government appointees, or in other words, proxies. The fact that they happen to preach dark side teachings doesn't mean that the citizens of the galaxy are being controlled by the dark side.
What's more, we run into an additional problem with your interpretation. The quote says "everything and everyone in the galaxy." You say Palpatine would be actively TP'ing everyone, but what about everything? Would Palpatine actively be TP'ing rocks, rivers, clouds, buildings, stars and black holes? How about TP'ing the laws of SW physics? Those fall under "everything" in the galaxy. Or perhaps you mean to suggest TP for people and TK for everything else? Wouldn't this quote not merely be a case of a grand TP feat, but proof that DE Palpatine is an abstract/universal tier combatant?
I've already stated that the "everything" part would fall under TK and other abilities. And you'd have a point if this were indeed a problem, but it isn't, except for anti-Sheevites, but that isn't a valid reason to dismiss such a proposition. What is there to suggest what you describe isn't plausible, other than one's personal incredulity?
The 'as such' doesn't follow. Multiple posters have suggested that the quote is hyperbole at best. Pretty reasonable alternative too in light DE Palpatine never once demonstrating TP power of the magnitude you're implying. So yes, there is ample need to make a explanations for Palpatine not using what he could have.
Um, Palpatine has demonstrated galaxy-wide TP before - click me - and has been firmly established as a being of with power of galactic proportions - click me - and so have his predecessors, who're his inferiors in power.
Where an extremely low midi-chlorian count might have bolstered the odds of survival, nature had instead made the ysalimir species strong in the Force. So strong, in fact, that several of the creatures acting in concert could create a Force bubble encompassing kilometers rather than meters. In a sense, the Jedi Order had done the same on [color=blue]a galactic scale, Plagueis believed, by bathing the galaxy in the energy of the light side of the Force; or more accurately by fashioning a Force bubble that had prevented infiltration by the dark side, until Tenebrous's Master had succeeded in bursting the bubble, or at least shrinking it.[/color] How the Order's actions could be thought of as balancing the Force had baffled generations of Sith, who harbored no delusions regarding the Force's ability to self-regulate.
--Darth Plagueis
In the case of Sidious, he is capable of casually influencing tens of trillions of beings with no effort and the tides of the Force shift according to his whims, decades before DE. So what exactly makes his controlling everyone and everything such a preposterous idea, after a vast growth in power from his previous accomplishments?
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Through a dark side magocracy wielding Force powers as superweapons yeah.
Palpatine would require immense amount of time implementing such a government, which is made note of here:
It is on Byss that the Emperor is establishing his model for a Galaxy-wide society of the far future, when the Dark Side of the Force will rule all without the need for weapons.
--Dark Empire endnote
Does not fit with the quote.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Does Abeloth fall under this? 🙂
Originally posted by AzrongerIt fits fine lol. Palpatine was capable of implementing a "Dark Empire" regardless of how long it would take.
Palpatine would require immense amount of time implementing such a government, which is made note of here:It is on Byss that the Emperor is establishing his model for a Galaxy-wide society of the far future, when the Dark Side of the Force will rule all without the need for weapons.
--Dark Empire endnote
Does not fit with the quote.
But yeah that was that the source is referring to, thanks for the quote.
