Star-Lord vs Falcon

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Wait, dodging one blast now constitutes as playing aerial tag with Vision? Okay then. And yet that "fodder" was hitting the Guardians ships once they got the kill order greenlight. You are basing your argument off your own generalisation. Not all fodder automatically shoot like Storm Troopers. Nobu's Hand ninjas are technically "fodder", yet it was shown time and time again that if Matt didn't dodge/catch/deflect their arrows that they would have found their mark.

What are these exchanges? Post all these physical scuffles they had if you are going to keep bringing them up. I can literally recall a single one that we don't even really see, where Falcon manages to break out of IM's grip via unknown means. Other than that and the instance of cheapshot kicking IM, I don't recall Falcon physically tussling with them. By all means, if I am wrong, post the clips of it happening.

Where did I say that? But, based on the weaponry he did use, he seemed to be going harder. And the big difference is Falcon going all out is a lot less dangerous to IM or WM than them going all out is to him. It's questionable whether anything in Falcon's arsenal could seriously harm IM or WM, whereas we know they have the firepower to straight up kill him.

You mean, hitting the guardian's ship that was a whole lot bigger than Starlord and not as maneuverable? Sure... that completely convinces me that they're crackshots.

Airport fight - Falcon tussles with WM in the background when they did their main team showdown. Goes up against him once more later and then goes against IM with Red Wing. Ignore his feat dodging Vision's blast, it was still a good maneuver. A maneuver that Starlord doesn't have anything quite as good.

In fact, I'm done playing defense. How bout you start posting feats of Starlord which makes you think he's just as agile in the air? I know GOTG2 vids aren't out yet but surely you can find something from the first movie that shows his flying skills. I posted a compilation vid of Falcon's feats, you could do me the same courtesy.

Originally posted by FrothByte
You mean, hitting the guardian's ship that was a whole lot bigger than Starlord and not as maneuverable? Sure... that completely convinces me that they're crackshots.

Whether they are uber shots is not the argument. You said they were crap just because they were fodder, when they were very clearly perfectly competent at it. And that's ignoring the sheer rate of fire they were putting out.

Originally posted by FrothByte

Airport fight - Falcon tussles with WM in the background when they did their main team showdown. Goes up against him once more later and then goes against IM with Red Wing. Ignore his feat dodging Vision's blast, it was still a good maneuver. A maneuver that Starlord doesn't have anything quite as good.

The main fight? They literally knocked into each other once and then took off flying. I don't recall them tussling a second time. At what point did they fight again, so I can go look for it on youtube? And he fired Redwing from his back, at range. That is not a physical scuffle.

Also, why would I ignore the Vision dodge? It was a good dodge, like I already said, but it wasn't like he was dogfighting him. Vision fired a distracted blast (he himself uses the word later) while cradling Wanda.

Originally posted by FrothByte
In fact, I'm done playing defense. How bout you start posting feats of Starlord which makes you think he's just as agile in the air? I know GOTG2 vids aren't out yet but surely you can find something from the first movie that shows his flying skills. I posted a compilation vid of Falcon's feats, you could do me the same courtesy.

He did not have the jetpack in the first film (just the boots), which he has for this fight (I mentioned it in the first few posts of the thread), so it would create a false impression of their comparative agility. I already pointed out his relevant feats for this match up, as have others.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Whether they are uber shots is not the argument. You said they were crap just because they were fodder, when they were very clearly perfectly competent at it. And that's ignoring the sheer rate of fire they were putting out.

There were hundreds of those little ships firing at the Guardians. The fact that the Guardian's ship (which is a lot lot bigger than Starlord himself) managed to survive that long is testament to how bad those Sovereign fighters aim.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller

The main fight? They literally knocked into each other once and then took off flying. I don't recall them tussling a second time. At what point did they fight again, so I can go look for it on youtube? And he fired Redwing from his back, at range. That is not a physical scuffle.

A fight can be over in just a second or two, so don't disregard their feats just because it wasn't a long, drawn out fight. Falcon and WM smashed into each other, twirled around, then Falcon got away and flew. The fact that he was able to get away from WM and didn't get completely overpowered is already a good feat. After all, if a 10 yr old kid slammed into me and I wanted to hold on to him, I'm pretty sure he wouldn't be able to get away.

Next we see them, you're right that they weren't scuffling. WM was chasing around Falcon. So not a scuffle, but another testament to Falcon's flying ability that WM even with those powerful thrusters was unable to catch up. In fact since we don't really see them since they first clashed, we can assume that they've been chasing each other around all this time, with WM still unable to nullify Falcon.

Then Falcon kicks IM and sends him flying. Considering how tough that armor is, that's a pretty good feat. Next scene we see IM grappling with Falcon, with Falcon able to kick off and fly away. Again, considering how strong IM's suit is, the fact that Falcon can even escape from IM's clutches while in mid air is a testament to either his strength or aerial dexterity/agility.

Now sure, these aren't exactly incredibly great feats compared to what we see from other superheroes. But it's still better than what we have from Starlord, who's main aerial fight pretty much happened off screen too.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller

Also, why would I ignore the Vision dodge? It was a good dodge, like I already said, but it wasn't like he was dogfighting him. Vision fired a distracted blast (he himself uses the word later) while cradling Wanda.

then it's not a scuffle. It's still a good feat and that's why I'm including it here. And I don't recall Starlord displaying any sort of feat to match.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller

He did not have the jetpack in the first film (just the boots), which he has for this fight (I mentioned it in the first few posts of the thread), so it would create a false impression of their comparative agility. I already pointed out his relevant feats for this match up, as have others.

So basically what you're saying is you only have that one scene in GoTG2 to base your entire argument on? Unfortunately, until we get a youtube clip in here then that scene is suspect because we all might be remembering it differently. For example, I remember most of that fight happening offscreen while Rocket explained bomb logic to Groot.

You should probably find other feats to back up your stance, especially considering that I'm using multiple feats for Falcon.

Originally posted by FrothByte
There were hundreds of those little ships firing at the Guardians. The fact that the Guardian's ship (which is a lot lot bigger than Starlord himself) managed to survive that long is testament to how bad those Sovereign fighters aim.

No, it's a testament to how tough the ship is, considering how many times it actually got hit.

Originally posted by FrothByte

A fight can be over in just a second or two, so don't disregard their feats just because it wasn't a long, drawn out fight. Falcon and WM smashed into each other, twirled around, then Falcon got away and flew. The fact that he was able to get away from WM and didn't get completely overpowered is already a good feat. After all, if a 10 yr old kid slammed into me and I wanted to hold on to him, I'm pretty sure he wouldn't be able to get away.

Proof that War Machine was actually trying to hold him? Also, their impact lasted barely a moment. If someone fumbles a thrown ball after running at it, it doesn't mean the ball has super evasion skills. It's certainly not an accurate representation of physical strength either. Or are you saying Winter Soldier's metal arm is significantly stronger than the entire WM armour, seeing as he managed to halt Sam with a grappling hook and yank him around without any issues in TWS.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Next we see them, you're right that they weren't scuffling. WM was chasing around Falcon. So not a scuffle, but another testament to Falcon's flying ability that WM even with those powerful thrusters was unable to catch up. In fact since we don't really see them since they first clashed, we can assume that they've been chasing each other around all this time, with WM still unable to nullify Falcon.

Then Falcon kicks IM and sends him flying. Considering how tough that armor is, that's a pretty good feat. Next scene we see IM grappling with Falcon, with Falcon able to kick off and fly away. Again, considering how strong IM's suit is, the fact that Falcon can even escape from IM's clutches while in mid air is a testament to either his strength or aerial dexterity/agility.

It was also shown that people like Wanda were tossing shit at WM and IM while they were flying about, so he was trying to chase down Falcon while dealing with other things as well.

Tony was hovering in the air when Falcon kicked him (you can see his boot repulsors were active when he goes flying offscreen), without providing any propulsion in resistance, which means all Falcon did was knock back something of Iron Man's mass that was not even paying attention to him, and had nothing to brace themselves against.

Also, I just watched that grapple scene between IM and Falcon in slowmo. For the brief second they show them, Falcon was the one with both arms on Tony (one to the arm and one to the chest), whereas Tony only had one hand holding Falcon's arm (with his other arm dangling free), so you can't even see who was trying to grab who. At best, you can say it took both Falcon's arms, a leg, and the thrust from his pack to break just Tony's grip strength on one hand. You tell me I'm using fights that happened mostly offscreen, yet you're using scenes so brief that we can't even accurately see what's happening in them, between Falcon and IM/WM.

Originally posted by FrothByte

Now sure, these aren't exactly incredibly great feats compared to what we see from other superheroes. But it's still better than what we have from Starlord, who's main aerial fight pretty much happened off screen too.

then it's not a scuffle. It's still a good feat and that's why I'm including it here. And I don't recall Starlord displaying any sort of feat to match.

I was discussing them from a physical scuffle standpoint, in terms of actual melee. Because Falcon has never actually bested anyone of note, even with his flight gear. He's only taken out human fodder. He didn't beat Ant-Man and he definitely did not beat either IM, WM or WS for that matter. Peter took out multiple Kree soldiers in volume 1, using a combination of firearms and H2H, during the showdown with Korath. Now, they were also featless, but being Kree already puts them above humans, in terms of physical stats.

I already pointed out that Star-lord dodged a very close range blast from Korath in the opening scene from the first film. The blast flew over him, right where his upper body had been before moving, making it very clear it would have struck if he hadn't dodged. Now, he did land on his back, but it was WAY closer than what Sam had to dodge in terms of Vision's blast. And he didn't even have any flight to aid him. In terms of pure reflexes/reactions, that's pretty impressive.

Originally posted by FrothByte

So basically what you're saying is you only have that one scene in GoTG2 to base your entire argument on? Unfortunately, until we get a youtube clip in here then that scene is suspect because we all might be remembering it differently. For example, I remember most of that fight happening offscreen while Rocket explained bomb logic to Groot.

You should probably find other feats to back up your stance, especially considering that I'm using multiple feats for Falcon.

No, the beginning fight with the Abilisk as well. After the baby Groot nonsense, they did show a chunk of that fight. And they show plenty of the end fight onscreen, even if it is not the main focus of the final act. I remember it. So do others.

You know he didn't have the jetpack in volume 1, so you know you can't get an accurate representation of his flight using only feats from that film. Why would I provide aerial feats that show lesser capability than he has for this fight? If you aren't going to acknowledge his GotG vol. 2 feats on the premise that people might be remembering it differently, then there is no point in continuing this until the clips become available, because he only gets all the relevant flight gear in that film.

Decided to give this a bump, seeing as both got more feats in IW. And can I please ask that people don't just come with Star-Lord > Spiderman > Falcon ABC logic? I know Falcon got pinned by Spiderman in CW, who in turn got taken hostage by Quill in Infinity War, but different situations etc.

Starlord hit Iron Man with some gravity/magnetism device that almost disabled him during their shortlived skirmish, I don't think Falcon could escape from it as IM did.

I feel like, after IW, Sam is more dangerous at long range, and Peter more dangerous closeup. Magnet trap, energy bola etc. don't have the same range as Falcon's missiles, for example, but they are way more useful if things get up close and personal. Shooting explosives at someone only a few feet away is generally a very bad idea.

Starlord wins.