Hi, I would like to tell you about Jesus Christ, the only way to God

Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
At least there is some sort of a justification for what happened during WW2. There is no justification for what happened in the Garden of Eden.

If I have sinned, then my sins pale in comparison to God's sins.

"If" you have sinned?

I think you know that you have--many times.

Nevertheless, now we can get somewhere.

"All" that talk about Adam, and you are just as "guilty" as he is. All it took was "one" sin from Adam to let sin into the world, and death (i.e. the curse) through sin.

You would have done the "same" thing since you "admit" that you have sins.

Originally posted by JesusLovesYou
"If" you have sinned?

I think you know that you have--many of times.

Nevertheless, now we can get somewhere.

"All" that talk about Adam, and you are just as "guilty" as he is. All it took was "one" sin from Adam to let sin into the world, and death (i.e. the curse) through sin.

You would have done the "same" thing since you "admit" that you have sins.

Of course I have sinned. Everyone, including God, has sinned.

The problem is that the punishment does not fit the crime, nor should everyone else suffer for the crimes/sins of one man. In fact, Adam's curiosity wasn't a crime to begin with.

Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
Of course I have sinned. Everyone, including God, has sinned.

The problem is that the punishment does not fit the crime, nor should everyone else suffer for the crimes/sins of one man. In fact, Adam's curiosity wasn't a crime to begin with.

Question: who's to blame when a drunk driver's car kills an innocent person, the United States of America, or the drunk driver?

👆 The drunk driver. Which is precisely why the entirety of humanity has no business being held accountable for the actions of one person. Unfortunately though, according to your silly creation story, that's apparently not how the world works.

Originally posted by JesusLovesYou
Question: who's to blame when a drunk driver's car kills an innocent person, the United States of America, or the drunk driver?

Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
The drunk driver. Adam was the proverbial drunk driver in the story of the Garden of Eden.

Thank you.

You "finally" see the light.

You blamed "Adam" and not God.

Originally posted by JesusLovesYou
Thank you.

You "finally" see the light.

You blamed "Adam" and not God.

Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
What? God is at fault for allowing Adam's sin to become everyone's sin. That would be like the US government throwing every single one of its citizens in jail because [b]one guy drove drunk. [/B]

Why would God be at fault for "your" sins?

You just "admitted" to being a sinner three posts back.

Originally posted by JesusLovesYou
I made errors in my last reply to you.

I meant to write,

I make sense to "a lot" of people.

But because "you" didn't understand what I wrote, it doesn't make sense?

*Reads explanation for quotes being used*

YouTube video

Why is "you" in quotes? Is this not meant to refer to me?

Originally posted by JesusLovesYou
Why would God be at fault for "your" sins?

You just "admitted" to being a sinner three posts back.

I am a sinner, yes, but my sins are minor and born out of humanity's flawed nature(which God is ultimately responsible for). See, the funny thing is that despite my sins, I'm not suffering. In fact, I have a better life than most. Couldn't say the same thing about the sin-free 3 year-old dying from leukemia.

Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
God is responsible for the disproportionate punishment for sins. And in the case of young children, who couldn't possibly have sinned, God is responsible for the suffering of complete innocents.

I am a sinner, yes, but my sins are minor and born out of humanity's flawed nature(which God is ultimately responsible for). See, the funny thing is that despite my sins, I'm not suffering. In fact, I have a better life than most. Couldn't say the same thing about the sin-free 3 year-old dying from leukemia.

God is responsible for the disproportionate punishment for sins. And in the case of young children, who couldn't possibly have sinned, God is responsible for the suffering of complete innocents.

Are your parents responsible for your punishment if you commit a “major” felony as an adult, get arrested, and thrown in the slammer for 25 years?

And in the case of young children, who couldn't possibly have been involved in World War II, the United States is responsible for the suffering of complete innocents.

I am a sinner, yes, but my sins are minor and born out of humanity's flawed nature(which God is ultimately responsible for). See, the funny thing is that despite my sins, I'm not suffering. In fact, I have a better life than most. Couldn't say the same thing about the sin-free 3 year-old dying from leukemia

There are “no” minor sins. Your sins are sending you to Hell right now.

Do you think eternal torment in the Lake of Fire is “minor”?

And no, your sins are not born out any flaws. Your sins are “your” fault.

Again, you “will” be suffering the wages of your sin.

You are just “one” heartbeat away from eternal damnation if you die in your sins.

There are no sin-free three-year-olds. However, I don’t believe that God holds children accountable for their sins, until they “know” what sin is—and the difference between good and evil, right and wrong.

Oh, you mean the “same” three-year-old that contracted/developed leukemia from the aftermath of nuclear bombs being dropped on them by the U.S.

It depends on how my hypothetical parents raised me. If they taught me that murder is actually OK and then I ended up killing someone, then they would carry some degree of responsibility. But then again, this is a flawed example, as parents do not have complete control over their children nor over primal human urges.

Again, we've been over the US nuking Japan scenario. The US is composed of flawed human beings and is not God, there was an all-out war between the US and Japan, and it was deemed that the nuclear bombings would ultimately prevent more suffering than they would cause. There was no such scenario in the Garden of Eden debacle.

The punishment does not fit the crime. Sending someone to suffer for eternity in Hell is an infinite punishment for a finite crime. It would be like giving a person a life sentence for jaywalking, but even worse. Moreover, there's no way to avoid certain sins as they are born of primal human urges that simply cannot be resisted. God made it essentially impossible to avoid sinning, hence it's his fault.

Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
It depends on how my hypothetical parents raised me. If they taught me that murder is actually OK and then I ended up killing someone, then they would carry some degree of responsibility. But then again, this is a flawed example, as parents do not have complete control over their children nor over primal human urges.

Again, we've been over the US nuking Japan scenario. The US is composed of flawed human beings and is not God, there was an all-out war between the US and Japan, and it was deemed that the nuclear bombings would ultimately prevent more suffering than they would cause. There was no such scenario in the Garden of Eden debacle.

The punishment does not fit the crime. Sending someone to suffer for eternity in Hell is an infinite punishment for a finite crime. It would be like giving a person a life sentence for jaywalking, but even worse. Moreover, there's no way to avoid certain sins as they are born of primal human urges that simply cannot be resisted. God made it essentially impossible to avoid sinning, hence it's his fault.

It depends on how my hypothetical parents raised me. If they taught me that murder is actually OK and then I ended up killing someone, then they would carry some degree of responsibility. But then again, this is a flawed example, as parents do not have complete control over their children nor over primal human urges.

I asked you a simple question.

I’m not talking about your “hypothetical” situation.

Once again, I gave you an easy scenario to answer and you failed.

The answer is “no”, your parents are not responsible for “your” actions if you are an adult.

And God is not responsible for your actions “either”.

See how simple that was.

Again, we've been over the US nuking Japan scenario. The US is composed of flawed human beings and is not God, there was an all-out war between the US and Japan, and it was deemed that the nuclear bombings would ultimately prevent more suffering than they would cause. There was no such scenario in the Garden of Eden debacle.

No one on earth is flawed.

People sin because they "want" to.

Stop making excuses for “evil” actions that caused innocent children to “suffer” needlessly.

War is “not” justification for murdering innocent children—who had “nothing” to do with the conflict going on between the Axis Powers and Allied Powers.

What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

God didn’t make Adam eat from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, so “stop” blaming Him.

The punishment does not fit the crime. Sending someone to suffer for eternity in Hell is an infinite punishment for a finite crime. It would be like giving a person a life sentence for jaywalking, but even worse. Moreover, there's no way to avoid certain sins as they are born of primal human urges that simply cannot be resisted. God made it essentially impossible to avoid sinning, hence it's his fault.

You “reap” what you “sow”.

You “don’t” understand how “evil” sin is.

Just like in my previous analogy, I demonstrated that “you send yourself” to the slammer for committing a major felony.

You see, it’s not the victim’s fault, the District Attorney’s fault, the public defender’s fault, the jury’s fault, nor the judges fault—it is "your” fault.

It is “no” different with Adam.

It was not Eve’s fault, the angel’s fault, God the Father’s fault, the Word (i.e. Jesus Christ’s)’s fault, nor the Holy Spirit’s fault—it was “Adam’s” fault.

You are oversimplifying the situation. If the parents taught their child that murder is OK and acceptable, then a great deal of responsibility would indeed lie with them if the kid ended up commiting murder.

This is wrong. People commit certain — not all — sins because they literally cannot help their natural urges. Natural urges that God instilled in them.

Again, you are greatly oversimplifying the situation. In a total war scenario, which we had during WW2, avoiding civilian casualties is very much impossible.

Adam ate from the Tree of Knowledge(why was it even there to begin with if it was forbidden?) because God had endowed Adam with the faculties of curiosity and a desire for knowledge and learning. Adam was merely following his nature, just like God made him.

So the desire for knowledge and curiosity is so grave a crime that it deserves an infinite punishment(an eternity of unimaginable suffering in Hell?) That's insane and totally unjust. But even if that was the case, the punishment should have still been limited to Adam and him alone.

And ultimately, if it's impossible for a human being to not ever sin, then it's not his/her fault. If somebody sets up an impossible task for someone to perform and they obviously fail at it, then the fault is with the one who set up the impossible task and not with the one who failed it.

You are oversimplifying the situation. If the parents taught their child that murder is OK and acceptable, then a great deal of responsibility would indeed lie with them if the kid ended up commiting murder.

No I’m not.

The situation is simple.

I’m not “asking” you whether some idiot parent taught their kid that murder was okay, so stop bringing that dumb scenario up.

I “explained” to you what I was talking about in my very “last” post.

This is wrong. People commit certain — not all — sins because they literally cannot help their natural urges. Natural urges that God instilled in them.

Natural urges?

Any urges that God created in humanity (like the desire for sex between a husband and a wife) are “not” sinful urges.

“Sinful” inclinations don’t come from God.

They come from Adam.

But that doesn’t mean that we “have” to fulfill those sinful inclinations.

For example, “most” (if not all people) have a natural inclination towards sweets. But that doesn’t mean that we “have” to eat sweets.

We can resist.

And many people do.

So the “inclination” (by, of, and in itself) is “not” the issue, or an excuse to indulge ourselves in sweets (or any other natural inclination)—because we have a “will” and can choose to indulge, or not to.

It is a “choice.”

Again, you are greatly oversimplifying the situation. In a total war scenario, which we had during WW2, avoiding civilian casualties is very much impossible.

No I am not.

I’m staying with the facts because they refute your claims about God and Adam.

Avoiding civilian casualties excuse?

It don’t matter.

Innocent children “still” suffered and died (many from cancer) because of Harry S. Truman’s sin.

Innocent children “still” suffered and died (many from brain tumors) because of Adam’s sin.

Adam ate from the Tree of Knowledge(why was it even there to begin with if it was forbidden?) because God had endowed Adam with the faculties of curiosity and a desire for knowledge and learning. Adam was merely following his nature, just like God made him.

Why did your parents put cookies in a jar, and then tell you that you could not have any whenever you wanted to?

Why did your father park his nice car in the driveway, but then tell you that you could not drive it whenever you wanted to?

Why do businesses put money in a cash register, and then tell the cashier that he or she cannot take money out of it and use it for whenever they wanted to?

Why do you parents put Christmas gifts under a tree days or weeks before Christmas, and then tell you that you cannot open them until Christmas?

Why do banks give vault tellers access to a vault, and then tell the vault teller he or she cannot take the money out of it, and use it for their own personal use?

Now, you have “no” problem understanding “any” of the above prohibitive scenarios.

But for some strange reason when it comes to Adam and the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, you suddenly become clueless, and lose all common sense.

So the desire for knowledge and curiosity is so grave a crime that it deserves an infinite punishment(an eternity of unimaginable suffering in Hell?) That's insane and totally unjust. But even if that was the case, the punishment should have still been limited to Adam and him alone.

The Bible does “not” reveal that Adam sinned for the reasons that you listed above.

In fact, the Bible says that Adam was “not” deceived.

You need to read my post entitled, “The Hell Controversy. Should Hell Be Forever?”, so you can “grasp” why Heaven and Hell are “forever”.

Click https://docs.google.com/document/d/1lOsv76AcvHBSlDvBwhbTUIUYCUnncq4RF1wCAzSI4vQ/edit

And ultimately, if it's impossible for a human being to not ever sin, then it's not his/her fault. If somebody sets up an impossible task for someone to perform and they obviously fail at it, then the fault is with the one who set up the impossible task and not with the one who failed it.

It’s “not” impossible for a human being to “not” sin.

The Lord Jesus did it.

I told you in my last post,

“People sin because they "want" to.”

Just examine your own life for proof.

Have you committed any of these sins?

Got high, drunk, lied, stole, had sex outside of marriage, cursed/swore, cheated on a test, viewed pornographic media, broke civil and/or federal laws, talked back to your mother, put someone down, look on a woman to lust for her/undressed a woman with your mind/eyes, ditched school (or played hooky or pretended to be sick), read a horoscope, called a psychic, got a tarot card and/or palm reading, played with Ouija or Angel boards, practiced witchcraft, sorcery, or homosexuality, or anything like these.

You asked me if a parent can be held responsible for the crimes that their kid commits, I gave you an example. This might be an extreme example, but parents create maladjusted children all the time through neglect and abuse.

Wrong. The inclination is to not have sex with your husband or wife, it's to have sex, period. Marriage does not factor into sexual desires. And merely having sexual thoughts about someone who you're not married to is a form of adultery, therefor sin.

It matters a lot because these are two different scenarios. One is about humans fighting a war for survival while doing their best to make sure justice is served, but ultimately, in a scenario like this, deaths of innocents is unavoidable. God did not have this cruel conundrum on his hands and yet he still chose to inflict Adam's sin on all of humanity.

All of these things you've mentioned have a clear purpose. What purpose did the Tree have other than to tempt Adam and Eve?

Adam was indeed not deceived, he was merely following his nature with which God has endowed him. Frankly, that post seems like apologia written to excuse the horribly unjust punishment God inflicts on his own creations.

Jesus supposedly managed to avoid commiting any sins, but Jesus was not human, not truly. He was a being of a divine nature and it's not appropriate to use him as a standard for the behavior of regular humans.

Well, there you go. If something as petty as reading a horoscope or something so unavoidably embedded in human nature as having sexual thoughts about someone is considered sinful, then not commiting sin is an impossible task. And like I said before, failure to perform an impossible task cannot be blamed on the one who failed the task, but the one who set it up.

I once gave myself a promise to not get into religious debates and it seems I broke it. And frankly, I have no time or desire to argue with brain-fevered zealots about things that aren't even real.

Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
You asked me if a parent can be held responsible for the crimes that their kid commits, I gave you an example. This might be an extreme example, but parents create maladjusted children all the time through neglect and abuse.

Wrong. The inclination is to not have sex with your husband or wife, it's to have sex, period. Marriage does not factor into sexual desires. And merely having sexual thoughts about someone who you're not married to is a form of adultery, therefor sin.

It matters a lot because these are two different scenarios. One is about humans fighting a war for survival while doing their best to make sure justice is served, but ultimately, in a scenario like this, deaths of innocents is unavoidable. God did not have this cruel conundrum on his hands and yet he still chose to inflict Adam's sin on all of humanity.

All of these things you've mentioned have a clear purpose. What purpose did the Tree have other than to tempt Adam and Eve?

Adam was indeed not deceived, he was merely following his nature with which God has endowed him. Frankly, that post seems like apologia written to excuse the horribly unjust punishment God inflicts on his own creations.

Jesus [b]supposedly managed to avoid commiting any sins, but Jesus was not human, not truly. He was a being of a divine nature and it's not appropriate to use him as a standard for the behavior of regular humans.

Well, there you go. If something as petty as reading a horoscope or something so unavoidably embedded in human nature as having sexual thoughts about someone is considered sinful, then not commiting sin is an impossible task. And like I said before, failure to perform an impossible task cannot be blamed on the one who failed the task, but the one who set it up. [/B]

You asked me if a parent can be held responsible for the crimes that their kid commits, I gave you an example. This might be an extreme example, but parents create maladjusted children all the time through neglect and abuse.

You “completely” missed it.

And you “keep” missing it.

So I’m done with that question.

Since you keep missing my point.

Wrong. The inclination is to not have sex with your husband or wife, it's to have sex, period. Marriage does not factor into sexual desires. And merely having sexual thoughts about someone who you're not married to is a form of adultery, therefor sin.

That just depends on whether you’re born again or not.

If you’re not born again, then you will have “no” problem having sex outside of marriage without so much as a scruple.

But this is “not” the case for believers. No true believer can do that, much less commit any sin without feeling “convicted”, then asking God for forgiveness every time.

It matters a lot because these are two different scenarios. One is about humans fighting a war for survival while doing their best to make sure justice is served, but ultimately, in a scenario like this, deaths of innocents is unavoidable. God did not have this cruel conundrum on his hands and yet he still chose to inflict Adam's sin on all of humanity.

Your stance is hypocritical because several posts back you wrote,

“…Has a 2-year-old with a brain tumor ever sinned? And besides, why would a sin, especially a minor one, carry a death sentence?….”

And,

“So a complete innocent is being punished because some guy thousands of years ago had sinned?....”

But when I showed you that innocent children were affected by/with death and diseases because of Harry S. Truman’s order to drop nuclear bomb on innocent children—you kept trying to “explain it away,” “justify” it, and “sweep it under the rug”.

How do you know what God had on His hands?

You weren’t there.

Besides, it was not a “matter” of God causing Adam’s sin to affect the world. Adam passed his sin and death “curse” to his descendants in much the same way as “your” parents passed their chromosomes to you.

God didn’t have a “thing” to do with that.

All of these things you've mentioned have a clear purpose. What purpose did the Tree have other than to tempt Adam and Eve

Adam needed at least “two” alternatives (obedience or disobedience) for his free will to be “real”, otherwise he would be nothing more than a glorified robot.

So out of all of the yes’s that God gave Adam, He had to give him a “no” so that his free will could go into force as it were, as a true act of his “volition”. If all Adam could do is obey (because he has no other alternatives) then his free will is fixed to one option. With the introduction of a second alternative (i.e. one that is “forbidden”), now Adam’s power of choice can “really” operate.

Adam can now prove his “obedience” to God, or prove his disobedience.

Adam was indeed not deceived, he was merely following his nature with which God has endowed him. Frankly, that post seems like apologia written to excuse the horribly unjust punishment God inflicts on his own creations.

His “nature”?

Adam didn’t have a sin nature until after he sinned, so that is false.

What,

“horribly unjust punishment God inflicts on his own creations.”

are you talking about?

Jesus supposedly managed to avoid commiting any sins, but Jesus was not human, not truly. He was a being of a divine nature and it's not appropriate to use him as a standard for the behavior of regular humans.

Jesus is 100% Human (just as much as you are), and 100% divine.

He could sin if He wants to.

The devil tried to get the Lord Jesus to sin, but each time the Lord quoted Scripture—and defeated him.

Well, there you go. If something as petty as reading a horoscope or something so unavoidably embedded in human nature as having sexual thoughts about someone is considered sinful, then not commiting sin is an impossible task. And like I said before, failure to perform an impossible task cannot be blamed on the one who failed the task, but the one who set it up.

Maybe for “you” it’s impossible to not sin, but not “a lot” of other people.

There are “no” petty sins.

You can keep making “weak”, “defeatist” excuses for your sin, but it will not help you.

You are “still” responsible for your sins.

However, the Bible says that if we (i.e. believers) sin, God is faithful and just to forgive us, and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

So God made provision for believers. Although, this forgiveness should not be taken for granted/abused.

JesusLovesYou, why is your God so horrible though? Does having super powers give one a pass to be an abomination?

Make no mistake: he's omnipotent. People die only because he wills it, not because there are no other options. You get that, correct?

Originally posted by JacquelineDeane
Hi, I would like to tell you about Jesus Christ, the only way to God