Originally posted by DamborgsonI addressed it. Green Scar will never increase his strength to killing levels. Thus he wouldn't know how much is enough right out of the box and needs to be careful. This gives his opponent an opportunity to ko him before he figures out the right amount.
I agree, and it's a fair point to bring up that I haven't seen properly addressed.
Originally posted by h1a8
No not "move faster" but "don't get hit from the slow moving object."
And I'm actually saying "become more powerful" until they can't effectively hurt him anymore.
Originally posted by h1a8
The example you gave was Hulk thumping someone significantly weaker.
Not him increasing his strength far beyond someone just to thump them.
These are two different things.
No, becoming too powerful to hurt is common sense. Thumping when far more powerful is a known tactic.
Originally posted by h1a8
It's inconsistent due to the plot, not his choice.I already agreed that he can amp his reactions even further. But in fights like this he doesn't have to.
I'm not actually talking about this fight, I haven't thrown in my two cents on it the entire time. This should have been evident by the fact that I'm discussing Green Scar rather than Savage.
Originally posted by darthgoober
And I'm actually saying "become more powerful" until they can't effectively hurt him anymore.No, becoming too powerful to hurt is common sense. Thumping when far more powerful is a known tactic.
I'm not actually talking about this fight, I haven't thrown in my two cents on it the entire time. This should have been evident by the fact that I'm discussing Green Scar rather than Savage.
But Hulk doesn't know how much is enough not to get hurt without killing. Otherwise we would see one case of it. Everyone was hurting WWH. Not once did WWH amp to levels he can't get hurt. He knows he can still win and doesn't need to risk killing by amping unnecessarily.. Thus It's not common sense.
TBH, I never would have thought of doing something like that. It's not like Hulk has a magic calculator that tells him immediately how much to amp where he can't get hurt and where he can thump someone koing them without killing them or anyone else. Going WB could cause him to kill someone with just a thump.
Originally posted by h1a8
But Hulk doesn't know how much is enough not to get hurt without killing. Otherwise we would see one case of it. Everyone was hurting WWH. Not once did WWH amp to levels he can't get hurt. He knows he can still win and doesn't need to risk killing by amping unnecessarily.. Thus It's not common sense.
I'm not saying he makes massive jumps, I'm saying to keep going until their punches stop hurting. Or just keep scaling up until each of his punches really rock his opponent. And I know we've never seen him do it... just as we've never seen a full on lightspeed blitz from Supes because he always holds back... even when he's really angry/losing the fight. And the same thing keeps them both from ramping up as much as necessary... the plot. Yet in a Supes thread, you talk about him doing that kind of thing if he feels it's necessary.
Originally posted by h1a8
TBH, I never would have thought of doing something like that. It's not like Hulk has a magic calculator that tells him immediately how much to amp where he can't get hurt and where he can thump someone koing them without killing them or anyone else. Going WB could cause him to kill someone with just a thump.
Well Hulk's been dealing with his powers far longer than you, and he's thought of thumping before multiple times. Not to mention the fact that he's actually a freaking genius. If I thought of something so simple, then he should be able to if we're factoring in the same level of "common sense" for him that we do others. And as I've already pointed out, I'm not suggesting him just jumping into WB level, I'm saying he should logically be able to scale up as much as he needs to.
Superman uses superspeed and planetary+ level strength constantly, as do his enemies and peers. Him applying this to beat Hulk is not only possible, but likely.
Marvel fans: He won't use those! [insert scan of character hitting Superman]
Hulk went WB in one arc in 55 years that took a few years of bad shit happening constantly to build his rage.
Marvel fans: He'll do that every time! Forum is bias!
Originally posted by JuntaiWhat if Hulk sundips?
Superman uses superspeed and planetary+ level strength constantly, as do his enemies and peers. Him applying this to beat Hulk is not only possible, but likely.Marvel fans: He won't use those! [insert scan of character hitting Superman]
Hulk went WB in one arc in 55 years.
Marvel fans: He'll do that every time! Forum is bias!
Originally posted by darthgoober
Yeah but at the same time, it's been established that Hulk is virtually always holding back, even when he's lost/losing. It's also been established that he can consciously control his anger level to a degree. The same logic of Supes excercing common sense in a forum fight to use his speed can be flipped to say that Green Scar will use his common sense(Savage Hulk obviously wouldn't apply) and stop holding back his strength as much as he needs to whenever he feels the need in a forum fight.That's not to say that Hulk WOULD in a forum fight because people complained until there was a mod ruling against it, but there is a fairly obvious double standard at play.
Except he never has.
Superman, at least, has used his speed in a fight.
Hulk has never EVER gone WBH just from a fight. But needed years of terrible stuff happening to him before he could.
Moreover, when Superman uses his speed, he KOs people. When Hulk goes WBH, he melts his opponents just by standing near them.
And Hulk does not kill. He holds back.
Same way Surfer does not open black holes in people's heads.
So it's not a double standard. Even when at his maddest, Hulk is constantly running the gamma maths to ensure he does not kill.
As WBH, him just STANDING there was melting his foes. Whereas Superman uses his speed specifically to not kill.
Originally posted by darthgoober
I'm not saying he makes massive jumps, I'm saying to keep going until their punches stop hurting. Or just keep scaling up until each of his punches really rock his opponent. And I know we've never seen him do it... just as we've never seen a full on lightspeed blitz from Supes because he always holds back... even when he's really angry/losing the fight. And the same thing keeps them both from ramping up as much as necessary... the plot. Yet in a Supes thread, you talk about him doing that kind of thing if he feels it's necessary.Well Hulk's been dealing with his powers far longer than you, and he's thought of thumping before multiple times. Not to mention the fact that he's actually a freaking genius. If I thought of something so simple, then he should be able to if we're factoring in the same level of "common sense" for him that we do others. And as I've already pointed out, I'm not suggesting him just jumping into WB level, I'm saying he should logically be able to scale up as much as he needs to.
I never argue Superman light speed blitz out of the gate. He retains that option sometime later in the match if he feels it is necessary. He will purposely get hit by a new opponent in order to determine how hard he can hit them. My argument with Superman is primarily his perceptions and using speed defensively.
You are suggesting that Hulk amps immediately to levels he can't be hurt. He doesn't know what level this is without risking killing with the thump. Hulk doesn't have a magic calculator. He has to do trial and error. This takes time. Otherwise he will go WB can kill someone with a thump.
So it takes trial and error. He can be koed by then. And also, he can't amp if he's rocked (stunned). He must be fully conscious to activate it.
Originally posted by Juntai
Superman uses superspeed and planetary+ level strength constantly, as do his enemies and peers. Him applying this to beat Hulk is not only possible, but likely.Marvel fans: He won't use those! [insert scan of character hitting Superman]
Hulk went WB in one arc in 55 years that took a few years of bad shit happening constantly to build his rage.
Marvel fans: He'll do that every time! Forum is bias!
Green Scar wasn't the version of Hulk around all those years though. The whole point of the arc is that Green Scar is specifically more powerful than all those previous versions.
And I can't speak for anybody else, but I haven't saying that he'd go WB in every thread. I've been saying that he can continue to scale up as much as he feels he needs to with WB being the only real cap to his power.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Except he never has.Superman, at least, has used his speed in a fight.
Hulk has never EVER gone WBH just from a fight. But needed years of terrible stuff happening to him before he could.
Moreover, when Superman uses his speed, he KOs people. When Hulk goes WBH, he melts his opponents just by standing near them.
And Hulk does not kill. He holds back.
Same way Surfer does not open black holes in people's heads.
So it's not a double standard. Even when at his maddest, Hulk is constantly running the gamma maths to ensure he does not kill.
As WBH, him just STANDING there was melting his foes. Whereas Superman uses his speed specifically to not kill.
Yet again... I'm not pitching going WB as his "go to" tactic, I'm saying he should be able to continue becoming stronger at will since it's been established that even during the WWH storyline, he was consciously holding back his power. Letting himself become 2, 3, or even 4 times as strong Herc isn't going to melt Herc just by being close to him. There was nothing to stop him from doing such a thing during he story beyond the plot... his only real targets were the Illuminate. But in a forum fight, whoever he's facing IS his target.
Originally posted by h1a8
I never argue Superman light speed blitz out of the gate. He retains that option sometime later in the match if he feels it is necessary. He will purposely get hit by a new opponent in order to determine how hard he can hit them. My argument with Superman is primarily his perceptions and using speed defensively.You are suggesting that Hulk amps immediately to levels he can't be hurt. He doesn't know what level this is without risking killing with the thump. Hulk doesn't have a magic calculator. He has to do trial and error. This takes time. Otherwise he will go WB can kill someone with a thump.
So it takes trial and error. He can be koed by then. And also, he can't amp if he's rocked (stunned). He must be fully conscious to activate it.
And one more time... I've very specifcally said that there's nothing to stop him from gradually increasing his power as much as he needs to. I'm not saying that he's going to jump to WB at the beginning of every thread.
Actually, Hulk IS a calculator of sorts. He's one of the top 5 minds on Marvel Earth and it's been noted that the reason his death count is so low even considering his rampages, is because he's always running the numbers and figuring out ways to destroy without killing.
Originally posted by darthgoober
Yet again... I'm not pitching going WB as his "go to" tactic, I'm saying he should be able to continue becoming stronger at will since it's been established that even during the WWH storyline, he was consciously holding back his power. Letting himself become 2, 3, or even 4 times as strong Herc isn't going to melt Herc just by being close to him. There was nothing to stop him from doing such a thing during he story beyond the plot... his only real targets were the Illuminate. But in a forum fight, whoever he's facing IS his target.
Then you wouldn't have any showings to support what that level would be. Why wouldn't 2/3/4 times Herc be outputting enough rads to melt him? Do you have showings to show what a 4 times Herc is like?
BiBeast and Wendigo et all were amped 1000x, and they were still vapourised just as a side effect. That isn't even talking about their strength, but their durability etc. Just the mere shockwaves. And they were previously Savage Hulk/Herc/Thor level. I.e. mid/high heralds.
So if they were amped, what, 100x, punching them directly would melt them? So if they were amped 10x, and you see what I'm getting at? We have no clue what a 4xstronger than Herc Hulk looks like.
With Superman, we at least have SOME debatable scans of what happens when he uses his speed against a brick (Doomsday Rex) - he just becomes intangible.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Then you wouldn't have any showings to support what that level would be. Why wouldn't 2/3/4 times Herc be outputting enough rads to melt him? Do you have showings to show what a 4 times Herc is like?BiBeast and Wendigo et all were amped 1000x, and they were still vapourised just as a side effect. That isn't even talking about their strength, but their durability etc. Just the mere shockwaves. And they were previously Savage Hulk/Herc/Thor level. I.e. mid/high heralds.
So if they were amped, what, 100x, punching them directly would melt them? So if they were amped 10x, and you see what I'm getting at? We have no clue what a 4xstronger than Herc Hulk looks like.
With Superman, we at least have SOME debatable scans of what happens when he uses his speed against a brick (Doomsday Rex) - he just becomes intangible.
Why wouldn't it... you're asking for proof of a negative. Why WOULD it? Why would Hulk being four times as strong as Herc mean that Herc would be vaporized just by being close? He's only done the whole Super Saiyan thing when he totally lets off the brakes and punches the gas. Kurse is 4 times stronger than Thor, do you really think that if he were magically cloned and he and the clones ran into each other that the shockwaves would incinerate people who were 1000x more powerful than Savage Hulk/Herc/Thor level? There's a huge difference in the level of power we're talking about here.
Originally posted by darthgoober
Why wouldn't it... you're asking for proof of a negative. Why WOULD it? Why would Hulk being four times as strong as Herc mean that Herc would be vaporized just by being close? He's only done the whole Super Saiyan thing when he totally lets off the brakes and punches the gas. Kurse is 4 times stronger than Thor, do you really think that if he were magically cloned and he and the clones ran into each other that the shockwaves would incinerate people who were 1000x more powerful than Savage Hulk/Herc/Thor level? There's a huge difference in the level of power we're talking about here.
Kurse doesn't output rads.
Re read my post. I was merely asking what THIS version of Hulk would look like.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Kurse doesn't output rads.Re read my post. I was merely asking what THIS version of Hulk would look like.
He'd still look like Hulk, only Herc wouldn't be able to just hop back up after a punch nor mount a suitable offense because of the increase to his durability and healing factor.
See here's the thing, as far as I know we've never actually SEEN Flash throw more than 1 IMP or actually punch at far faster than lightspeed(I believe the IMP is his max, and that's only NEAR lightspeed). Does that mean that we don't actually take those possibilities into consideration in a forum fight? Flash supporters say "of course not, just use common sense" but if you flip the logic then "we never seen it so we don't actually know what would happen... we don't know for sure if there'd be side effects like certain death or Flash's punches being totally incorporeal since matter effectively becomes energy at lightspeed" becomes a viable retort. That's why I say there's a double standard at play. There's one standard for Hulk, and a different standard for everybody else.
Originally posted by darthgoober
You were talking about the shockwaves, I brought up shockwaves. If 4x Greenscar's rad energy output were able to instantly kill Herc, no regular human could go near him or even anywhere he'd been for a while. But that happened multiple times in the arc.
At what point does he get strong enough to do so? 900x? What happens when he's 100x Herc? Does he have to punch him directly to vapourise him? 50x?
See here's the thing, as far as I know we've never actually SEEN Flash throw more than 1 IMP or actually punch at far faster than lightspeed(I believe the IMP is his max, and that's only NEAR lightspeed). Does that mean that we don't actually take those possibilities into consideration in a forum fight? Flash supporters say "of course not, just use common sense" but if you flip the logic then "we never seen it so we don't actually know what would happen... we don't know for sure if there'd be side effects like certain death or Flash's punches being totally incorporeal since matter effectively becomes energy at lightspeed" becomes a viable retort. That's why I say there's a double standard at play. There's one standard for Hulk, and a different standard for everybody else.
Now you're changing it to Flash, but OK. Except Flash has A: done an IMP, and crucially, said that he could do a thousand of them. Moreover, he has also punched at lightspeed, not only NEAR:
No one says he punches at FTL. But we have a clear on panel comic of what happens AT lightspeed.
Which is more than this version of Hulk. And, crucially, FEWER than what we have of Superman using his speed.
Edit with caveats: people probably do say he does FTL punches....if so,direct them to this.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Oh my point was, a WBH was able to vapourise beings that were 1000x Herc (not literally, but of that level).At what point does he get strong enough to do so? 900x? What happens when he's 100x Herc? Does he have to punch him directly to vapourise him? 50x?
That's right, and with them being at that level shows that Hulk was FAR more powerful than I'm talking about him being.
I have no idea, we have literally NO way to make a positive assertion of when that kind of thing to kick in but we DO have at least circumstantial evidence that Hulk would have been able to give off quite a bit more energy without it actually being lethal. He wasn't even giving off enough radiation to be lethal to HUMANS, so he's got quite a ways to go before it'd be lethal to someone like Herc.
You've got to remember, the fights here take place in an arena with the combatants being .5 KM away from each other. That means he doesn't have to worry about his energy killing a non combatant that's standing 10 feet away. So he can scale up quite a bit into the realm of his rad being lethal to humans before having to worry about it being lethal to Herc.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Now you're changing it to Flash, but OK. Except Flash has A: done an IMP, and crucially, said that he could do a thousand of them. Moreover, he has also punched at lightspeed, not only NEAR:No one says he punches at FTL. But we have a clear on panel comic of what happens AT lightspeed.
Which is more than this version of Hulk. And, crucially, FEWER than what we have of Superman using his speed.
Now in regards to your scan, according to physics 101 at lightspeed matter effectively becomes energy, not gains the mass of a dwarf star...which mean it's most likely misworded. We have other examples of him talking about objects gaining mass as they APPROACH lightspeed to back up this line of thinking. Also, wasn't he fighting with someone who also moves at such speeds? Which could very well mean that while he is technically moving at lightspeed, he's not quite moving at lightspeed relative to his target?
I'm not debating real world physics here lol, or how realistic things should be.
The answer to your questions are all: no, it doesn't work like that, it works exactly like it was shown in the comic.
Banner doesn't die of radiation poisoning. Parker doesn't go into anaphylactic shock. Batman doesn't die from exhaustion after two weeks. The Hulk' pants don't disintegrate. Nobody takes Robin into Social Services.
Why do I say all this? Because we have on panel showings of what happens when it happens.
4x (or whatever) Hulk? No.
And again,for the thread, we have scans of Superman using his speed.