Superman vs. Savage Hulk (h2h) only

Originally posted by TheHulkster
Talking about something flying over someone's head. One of your buddies who shares your view of Hulk not being able to respond to Superman's speed said in that thread that Lobo would crush Gladiator, a character established as having super speed. So I tossed your argument back at him to show the double standard/hypocrisy. None of you Superman fans give superspeed benefit to Gladiator, Sentry,etc. You actually debate Gladiator realistically based on portrayal. You debate a Superman that doesn't exist.

I argue that Superman does NOT get hit because he simply chooses to get hit in the face and sometimes nearly knocked out for absolutely no reason at all. No expaination has established why superspeed is so inconsistent and rarely used. I have possible reasons that could sensibly be used. If I state them, you will ask for "proof"; proof of a fictional idea in a fictional story. There is no proof. There are ideas that make the most sense within a story. Getting hit and hurt on purpose makes no sense.

And Hulk has shown speed enough to counter speed:

PIS: Characters not using powers we know they can to make a comic story better. [though leaving out specifically powered up feats they cant accomplish on their own]

No Mentioning Events of PIS
Plot Induced Stupidity, or PIS, is when characters don't use their abilities or skills to the fullest extent as shown before, even within their personality ranges, for the sake of the story plotline. It makes lesser powered characters an actual challenge against higher powered characters in the comics.

And the full capacity rule, where-in we're given a Flash example, that just because he doesnt max out from the start in the comic, we know he can;

Full Capacity
It is assumed that each contestant will fight to his/her best ability, but still within the character's personality, unless specified otherwise. That means they will use any powers at their disposal. For example, even though The Flash doesn't clock each of his own opponents in the first millisecond in his own comic, it is assumed that is a viable tactic on this board since it is a proven fact that he possesses that level of speed.

Originally posted by Juntai
The problem with your model is when we apply the forum rules.

PIS: Characters not using powers we know they can to make a comic story better. [though leaving out specifically powered up feats they cant accomplish on their own]

And the full capacity rule, where-in we're given a Flash example, that just because he doesnt max out from the start in the comic, we know he can;

just because Superman isnt his using his speed to dodge blows all the time, its still a viable tactic to say he will to a drastically slower opponent.

The rules specifically categorize Superman and Surfer as CIP, and that's allowed.

A viable tactic is different from an end all. The term "clock" means to hit. Flash can hit anyone in a millisecond, including Superman. That doesn't mean he beats Superman.

Can I argue that Hulk will heal from everything Superman dishes out instantly since we know that he has that level of healing? And as time goes on, during this constant healing, he will grow stronger until Worldbreaker mode and atomized Superman with a punch? We've seen him do this. We've seen him hit speedsters. So this works right?

Originally posted by TheHulkster
The rules specifically categorize Superman and Surfer as CIP, and that's allowed.

A viable tactic is different from an end all. The term "clock" means to hit. Flash can hit anyone in a millisecond, including Superman. That doesn't mean he beats Superman.

Can I argue that Hulk will heal from everything Superman dishes out instantly since we know that he has that level of healing? And as time goes on, during this constant healing, he will grow stronger until Worldbreaker mode and atomized Superman with a punch? We've seen him do this. We've seen him hit speedsters. So this works right?

CIP involves holding back to not endanger others. This is a indestructible arena without civilians. Likewise, it specifically says it won't make them fight like idiots. They're still fighting to win with the power at their disposal.

WB Hulk is a specifically powered up version for a specific story. It took a lot of plot for him to get that far.

An attempt at relating that to Superman using superspeed is a heavy desparation move. Superman uses speed constantly in and out of combat. It's proven that he can just will it and do it.

Interestingly though, one of the two combatants here is also planet moveing/breaking level from the jump just be deciding to use that level of power.

it's not Hulk.

Originally posted by TheHulkster
Talking about something flying over someone's head. One of your buddies who shares your view of Hulk not being able to respond to Superman's speed said in that thread that Lobo would crush Gladiator, a character established as having super speed. So I tossed your argument back at him to show the double standard/hypocrisy. None of you Superman fans give superspeed benefit to Gladiator, Sentry,etc. You actually debate Gladiator realistically based on portrayal. You debate a Superman that doesn't exist.

Except A: Lobo also has superspeed, and B: he explicitly does the illogical. No double standard there. Lobo has the ToonForce, and if you want to debate Gladiator based on portrayal (which is good) you should also debate Lobo based on ALL of his portrayals.

No expaination has established why superspeed is so inconsistent and rarely used.

Difference is, those tactics result in instant kills. Superman's speed? KOs.

And all 3 aren't killers.

WBH went WBH, AFTER:

1. he was exiled to a distant planet by his 'friends'
2. his wife and unborn child were killed by said friends.
3. he had been simmering and stewing in his anger on the long journey back for revenge
4. nobody understood him, and all his friends, rather than being contrite, fought back (and in some cases, involved children to defend themselves)
5. he finds out that his friends weren't the reason for his family's death, but it was his blood oath brother who did it.
6. Said blood brother also wounded his oldest friend, who had been one of the sole defenders of Hulk throughout.

AFTER all this, he then truly went WBH in the Dark Dimension, when he knew he couldn't permanently kill his opponents and that they'd be all brought back.

So yeah, in character, Hulk isn't going WBH just because he's been punched. Has never happened. Spidey firing off 'yo mama' jokes doesn't mean he steadily gets angrier until he goes WBH. It takes a LOT to make him get to WBH levels - and a simple fight doesn't do that.

But Hulk has used WBH before, he just kept it contained instead of blowing up the planet with his footsteps.

Originally posted by Damborgson
But Hulk has used WBH before, he just kept it contained instead of blowing up the planet with his footsteps.

All after the sequence of events I posted. It's not as if he goes WBH in every battle, even when losing. Hell, he didn't even attain those strength levels when saving the Earth from the Celestial.

Originally posted by carver9
Superman have more history of getting his face caved in by bricks vs using speed against them.

So essentially you feel that as far as the forum is concerned Superman just doesn't have any super speed?

Originally posted by TheHulkster
Behave intelligently where? What are you talking about? These are imaginary characters in comic books. They have no intelligence. They are written certain ways. We judge them based on how they are written, not on how you think they should be written. The overwhelming average show Superman routinely getting hit by characters whose strength he is familiar with and being hurt by those punches. So that is how he is judged. Based on that norm.

Behave intelligently in the proposed fight. Of course they are imaginary, but if we're going to imagine two characters fighting I don't think it hurts to give them a bit of common sense.

You seem upset with the notion that Superman can't beat every character in one second. Is he lesser because the effort writers make to challenge him count on battle boards? It all counts. Phil said that he understood that the worm that attacked Deathseed Sentry served the story purpose of getting Sentry out of the way for a while. He then adds that regardless, it still counts.

I'm not upset he can't beat everyone in one second. Like I said, comics are entertainment. I prefer a very powerful Superman yes, but I don't want him solving every crisis in the blink of an eye. If you meant I want him to beat everyone in a forum fight in one second, no I don't. I just want his speed allowed.

So everything else counts, regardless of writer's purpose. History dictates that Superman will have to struggle to beat Hulk and would be in jeopardy of losing. Hulk will land repeated blows. Now you may resume discussing me for another two pages with your friends.

For me, feats are what count the most. Writer intent can be problematic because they purposely draw out the story for entertainment purposes, which as I said I have no problem with.

As for your comment about discussing you, what? That seems to imply I was going after you and then talking about you with other people, but I never did. I don't have any issues with you.

Originally posted by Surtur
So essentially you feel that as far as the forum is concerned Superman just doesn't have any super speed?

I feel that Superman will get punch in a fight vs him blitzing around like a DBZ character. It's like me going into a Surfer vs Superman thread saying Surfer pulls a 10/10 on Supes by going intangible, wrapping Superman entire body up in adamantium and then blasting his cranium with red Sun radiation while at the same time creating a black hole above Superman. Surfer is capable of doing everything I've mentioned but I can't think of a single Superman fan on KMC that would accept what I said. The only reason they are arguing right now is because this is Superman. They are ok with him fighting out of character vs any other being that is going against him.

Originally posted by carver9
I feel that Superman will get punch in a fight vs him blitzing around like a DBZ character. It's like me going into a Surfer vs Superman thread saying Surfer pulls a 10/10 on Supes by going intangible, wrapping Superman entire body up in adamantium and then blasting his cranium with red Sun radiation while at the same time creating a black hole above Superman. Surfer is capable of doing everything I've mentioned but I can't think of a single Superman fan on KMC that would accept what I said. The only reason they are arguing right now is because this is Superman. They are ok with him fighting out of character vs any other being that is going against him.

Originally posted by TheHulkster
The rules specifically categorize Superman and Surfer as CIP, and that's allowed.

A viable tactic is different from an end all. The term "clock" means to hit. Flash can hit anyone in a millisecond, including Superman. That doesn't mean he beats Superman.

Can I argue that Hulk will heal from everything Superman dishes out instantly since we know that he has that level of healing? And as time goes on, during this constant healing, he will grow stronger until Worldbreaker mode and atomized Superman with a punch? We've seen him do this. We've seen him hit speedsters. So this works right?

Originally posted by carver9
I feel that Superman will get punch in a fight vs him blitzing around like a DBZ character. It's like me going into a Surfer vs Superman thread saying Surfer pulls a 10/10 on Supes by going intangible, wrapping Superman entire body up in adamantium and then blasting his cranium with red Sun radiation while at the same time creating a black hole above Superman. Surfer is capable of doing everything I've mentioned but I can't think of a single Superman fan on KMC that would accept what I said. The only reason they are arguing right now is because this is Superman. They are ok with him fighting out of character vs any other being that is going against him.

It's not the same thing. Super speed isn't a creative choice. Superman's perceptions are always on, just like his durability. He can't turn those things off.
Surfer has to think about becoming intangible and doing all those other things in real battle time and then spend time activating them. Even if Surfer would like to think about those things, then, in most cases, he will not have time to. He would barely have time to react to Superman. That's why he's a blaster. This is the quickest way for him to attack without thinking.

The forum rules explicitly states that although Flash doesn't clock someone in the first millisecond, he can in a forum fight. This goes for Superman too.

Also you ignore his question (which is trolling). He asked if Superman fights in a forum without his superspeed and perceptions?

Originally posted by h1a8
Hulk doesn't heal instantly. It takes at least several seconds depending on how severe the damage is. Hulk has been koed many times in comics, taking damage faster than his HF can act. Namor koed him in one blow while in the water. Superman is a lot stronger.

Originally posted by JBL
Trying to use namor is like me using that gas station explosion to gauge how superman would fare against a blast from Surfer.

How? Namor in water is Hulk's peer. A gas station is not Superman's peer.

Originally posted by h1a8
How? Namor in water is Hulk's peer. A gas station is not Superman's peer.

Originally posted by carver9
I feel that Superman will get punch in a fight vs him blitzing around like a DBZ character. It's like me going into a Surfer vs Superman thread saying Surfer pulls a 10/10 on Supes by going intangible, wrapping Superman entire body up in adamantium and then blasting his cranium with red Sun radiation while at the same time creating a black hole above Superman. Surfer is capable of doing everything I've mentioned but I can't think of a single Superman fan on KMC that would accept what I said. The only reason they are arguing right now is because this is Superman. They are ok with him fighting out of character vs any other being that is going against him.

The problem with comparing him to DBZ characters is that pretty much every single fighter in DBZ has super speed. So of course you're going to see them using the speed all the time.

Anyways, I am a fan of Superman and I sort of accept what you said. Surfer just doesn't need to take all the steps you gave in order to win. He pretty much needs to just generate red sun radiation or kryptonite and then blast Superman with it. If he can generate those things while also being intangible that helps even more, but it's not necessary since Superman can't take him down before he generates red sun energy.

IMO Superman fans need to recognize Surfer is too powerful and versatile for Superman to take down. If you want a version of Superman who can win you need someone like Kal Kent or PC Superman, but then Surfer would get stomped by them.

Versatile, yes.

Superman is also weak to many of the things Surfer can do.

However...Surfer is also susceptible to the one thing Supey can do,and do very well, namely, being punched.

After all, if we are really just going to rely on comic stories....how has Surfer done against an even MORE limited character,the Hulk?

Originally posted by Surtur
The problem with comparing him to DBZ characters is that pretty much every single fighter in DBZ has super speed. So of course you're going to see them using the speed all the time.

Anyways, I am a fan of Superman and I sort of accept what you said. Surfer just doesn't need to take all the steps you gave in order to win. He pretty much needs to just generate red sun radiation or kryptonite and then blast Superman with it. If he can generate those things while also being intangible that helps even more, but it's not necessary since Superman can't take him down before he generates red sun energy.

IMO Superman fans need to recognize Surfer is too powerful and versatile for Superman to take down. If you want a version of Superman who can win you need someone like Kal Kent or PC Superman, but then Surfer would get stomped by them.

Superman fights General Zod, Faora, Captain Marvel, etc... and their fights doesn't go close to anything I mentioned. It's still the same ole punching and kicking at regular speeds.

That's the difference between me and you, I don't think Surfer would fight anywhere close to that. He would do his norm, fly around blasting with normal blast mixing in a lil versatility. We dont ignore comics. Also, I would never give Surfer 10/10 against Superman, even if he have the abilities to do it. I would give him 7 max and that's pushing it.

Originally posted by carver9
Superman fights General Zod, Faora, Captain Marvel, etc... and their fights doesn't go close to anything I mentioned. It's still the same ole punching and kicking at regular speeds.

That's the difference between me and you, I don't think Surfer would fight anywhere close to that. He would do his norm, fly around blasting with normal blast mixing in a lil versatility. We dont ignore comics. Also, I would never give Surfer 10/10 against Superman, even if he have the abilities to do it. I would give him 7 max and that's pushing it.

This goes both ways, you know.

If Supey isn't using his speed....THEY'RE not using their speed either (otherwise Superman would be speedblitzed).

So now you're saying Zod, Faora, Marvel....and most importantly for you, WONDER WOMAN - don't use their speed?

As WW doesn't exactly overwhelm Supey with a flurry of DBZ style punches and kicks.

Based on comics.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
All after the sequence of events I posted. It's not as if he goes WBH in every battle, even when losing. Hell, he didn't even attain those strength levels when saving the Earth from the Celestial.

That's not to say that Hulk WOULD in a forum fight because people complained until there was a mod ruling against it, but there is a fairly obvious double standard at play.