canon vs non-canon

k, that odin thread really started this and maybe this thread will help others. here is a place to discuss the canonicity of stories. what does or doesn't count. maybe mods can drop in rule if necessary, or clear up misconceptions at least. i'll start with a couple that i know cause problems just to get things off the ground then people can add some others for discussion and maybe even voting or ruling. some consistently argued ones include:

great darkness saga
king thor saga
unilord surfer saga

i know there are several others. which ones are definitely considered non-canon? are there any arcs that are canon but STILL not allowed to be used in the forum? should some changes be considered with regards to some of these arcs?

let the great debate begin! 🙂

It's simple - as long as it's the main Universe, be it the past or the future, it all counts as far as feats are concerned [unless there's a special case where character explicitly gets stronger over time, in which case it can't apply to current version - say, Superman 50 years in the future is more powerful than currently].

If by travelling to the future/past you travel to an alternate Universe [such as it was for a long time in Marvel], it doesn't count. But if it's the future of the actual current Universe [such as it is in DC], it's common sense that it counts.

problem is it's not always readily stated whether the past/future IS an alt universe. i take it you don't think all the above i mentioned should be considered canon?

Originally posted by leonidas
problem is it's not always readily stated whether the past/future IS an alt universe. i take it you don't think all the above i mentioned should be considered canon?

Say, let's pick a character with no changes to his power over time - Captain Marvel [mostly]. If there's a story where Captain Marvel in the future goes insane and kills Wonder Woman, but he is convinced by the wisdom of Solomon to undo everything, goes back in time through the Rock of Eternity, and makes it so that the future is erased once he does something in the past - then it's still canon as far as his abilities go [since both Billy and Diana have constant power in time].

the confusion regarding alternate timelines and universes actually comes from Marvel, mostly. Take Reigning-universe for example:

http://imgur.com/a/JCHv3

Reigning was the future of 616 Earth while at the same time it is designated as Earth-3515.

so is it a future reality or an alternate universe? It's actually both at the same time

But is it usable to Earth-616 characters?

Yes, because affecting Earth-616 directly affecting that reality, so they're linked. That's what Philosophia was trying to say i think, and i agree.

However, sometimes, like in Legion's case and GOTG the case isn't very clear. Because there is evidence for both: It being an alternate reality as well as the future of mainstream earth.

I already provided some examples for Legion in the other thread, but regarding GOTG:

In GOTG #7 starhawk finds out that it's impossible to change the GOTG timeline (3oth century) via changing the mainstream 20th century Earth (earth-616). He tried many times and only ended up creating divergent realities. Later on, however, in #44 the exact opposite happens. The GOTG travel to the past (earth-616) and inadvertently (i won't bother with the details) change their 30th century timeline (earth-691). so there is evidence for both and thus the question of whether that timeline is the future of 616 or an alternate comes down to personal preference.

to answer your questions Leo:

GDS: Debatable (evidence for both)
Reigning thor: Yes (evidence solely suggests that it's the future and doesn't contradict it)
Unilord surfer: No, from what i remember. At the beginning and end of the story it's highly implied that the unilord universe contains an alternate surfer.

What about say Old Man Logan and Maestro?

What about MC2? Those characters have traveled back in time to intermingle with 616 characters.

Also, the events of Uncanny Avengers during the issue where Earth is destroyed and after. Are those events canon? I recall Abhi arguing that Hulk holding Doom's force field generating machine in place is non-canon due to the time travel rewrite. That seems absurd to me.

I'd rather not do a sweeping rule change. It's a slippery slope.

Case by case basis maybe?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
What about say Old Man Logan and Maestro?

Hmmm... Well wadda u know? You are useful for something.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
What about say Old Man Logan and Maestro?

i'd def say the maestro verse, and the events that happened their are canon. hulk has had direct impact on those events and there has obviously been direct contact between 616 and whatever designate the maestro timeline has been given.

not sure about old man logan or mc2, though i thought mc2 was a totally different universe. i'd say the uncanny avengers stuff should still be canon--the effects were directly divergent from the 616 and were changed back when a a change was made IN the 616 from what i recall. that speaks to a directly divergent path so i don;t know why that wouldn't count.

i agree with opr and phil--if a change in the 616 can alter a divergent timeline, and the characters in said timeline show no real differences, there should be no reason feats in those timelines aren't recognized.

marvel's THE END series' have been argued often in the past as well.

The thing about alternate timelines is that they derail threads. You can argue in circles about them forever and debates never move forward. That's why over the years on KMC it became a simple standard of "no never". Even if a feat takes place in a What If 5 minutes after the divergence, it's not valid. Even if the events happen in the mainstream universe and then time manipulation is used to reset the clock and change things, it's not valid. A good debate is rare enough as it is, allowing these kinds of things will prevent even more debates from actually moving forward. Potential valid alternate experiences have simply been sacrificed for the greater good of the forum as a whole the same way JLA/Avengers has been outright barred from debates.

The mods don't like to step in and opening up this door would require them to basically every time someone brought up such and instance to prevent the discussion from devolving into an absolute mess of bickering.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
I'd rather not do a sweeping rule change. It's a slippery slope.

Case by case basis maybe?

What about age of apocalypse?

It's really not that hard to understand. In marvel every future is in itself an alternate reality even if it is linked to 616 universe as shown innumerable times.

In DC the rules of time travel are a bit more relax and hence there is only one timeline from big bang to vanishing point. If there are alternate timelines, they are wholly separate from main timeline and have little connections with main timeline. Hence you can even alter past events to change present and the role of Linear Men to safeguard history.

You'll never find a scene where a future story in DC is an alternate reality. At best its a possible future of the main timeline.

Originally posted by darthgoober
The problem with handling things on a case by case basis is that people will ONLY ever recognize things that they like. The only way something like this would work would be to have definitive guidelines on what qualified. Otherwise you end up with double standards all over the place.

Originally posted by eaebiakuya
What about age of apocalypse?

Originally posted by darthgoober
The problem with handling things on a case by case basis is that people will ONLY ever recognize things that they like. The only way something like this would work would be to have definitive guidelines on what qualified. Otherwise you end up with double standards all over the place.

Originally posted by darthgoober
The thing about alternate timelines is that they derail threads. You can argue in circles about them forever and debates never move forward. That's why over the years on KMC it became a simple standard of "no never". Even if a feat takes place in a What If 5 minutes after the divergence, it's not valid. Even if the events happen in the mainstream universe and then time manipulation is used to reset the clock and change things, it's not valid. A good debate is rare enough as it is, allowing these kinds of things will prevent even more debates from actually moving forward. Potential valid alternate experiences have simply been sacrificed for the greater good of the forum as a whole the same way JLA/Avengers has been outright barred from debates.

The mods don't like to step in and opening up this door would require them to basically every time someone brought up such and instance to prevent the discussion from devolving into an absolute mess of bickering.

But it shouldn't be never.

Because the rules don't say never..

that scan i posted referencing the 2099 universe as "the 616 circa 2099" says that not every future is an alternate reality in marvel. 2099 IS the 616--as was specifically stated.

@goob: i'm not sure what 'circular arguments' you think will come about from the relaxing or abolishment of this rule. there are dozens of circular arguments already. we've seen darkseid perform greater feats than those of gds anyway, so what difference does it make? avengers/jla--if it's ruled arguable, i'm not sure how it would bungle up anymore threads than if it is disallowed. it's simply more feats. neither arc would be close to the be-all-end-all in any thread debating the involved characters. no one uses just one source as support for an argument. well, no one with any brains. so if someone is doing so, i'd suggest placing them on ignore. i've discovered the forum seems a lot more intelligent once you drop 8 or 10 names into your ignore list. /shrug

to my understanding aoa would def not be canon. characters were depicted with vast differences and even powers didn't seem to remain wholly the same.

And here is a prime example of the types double standards I was talking about creeping up. Note what abhi's true point is here...

Originally posted by abhilegend
It's really not that hard to understand. In marvel every future is in itself an alternate reality even if it is linked to 616 universe as shown innumerable times.

In DC the rules of time travel are a bit more relax and hence there is only one timeline from big bang to vanishing point. If there are alternate timelines, they are wholly separate from main timeline and have little connections with main timeline. Hence you can even alter past events to change present and the role of Linear Men to safeguard history.

You'll never find a scene where a future story in DC is an alternate reality. At best its a possible future of the main timeline.

It should always be allowed for DC, but never for Marvel. And why? Because Marvel goes to the trouble of assigning a number for every "alternate universe" in handbooks so that the events are regonized as still happening somwhere in the multiverse no matter what rather than being an ambiguous "potential future".

Thanks for proving my point abhi, your timing is impeccable 🙂

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But it shouldn't be never.

Because the rules don't say never..

Originally posted by leonidas
that scan i posted referencing the 2099 universe as "the 616 circa 2099" says that not every future is an alternate reality in marvel. 2099 IS the 616--as was specifically stated.

@goob: i'm not sure what 'circular arguments' you think will come about from the relaxing or abolishment of this rule. there are dozens of circular arguments already. we've seen darkseid perform greater feats than those of gds anyway, so what difference does it make? avengers/jla--if it's ruled arguable, i'm not sure how it would bungle up anymore threads than if it is disallowed. it's simply more feats. neither arc would be close to the be-all-end-all in any thread debating the involved characters. no one uses just one source as support for an argument. well, no one with any brains. so if someone is doing so, i'd suggest placing them on ignore. i've discovered the forum seems a lot more intelligent once you drop 8 or 10 names into your ignore list. /shrug

to my understanding aoa would def not be canon. characters were depicted with vast differences and even powers didn't seem to remain wholly the same.