Originally posted by leonidasIt's how alternate Universes are defined.
if it's not, how can they be 616 one instant, and the next not? seems silly to me.
The Wolverine that killed Hulk isn't the mainstream Logan, and neither is Hulk.
The Universe in which Wolverine killed Hulk is a separate one, that has a history mirroring 616 up until Wolverine kills Hulk. That makes it a separate version of the character doing the feat.
Originally posted by leonidasThis is the correct answer.
i'd def say the maestro verse, and the events that happened their are canon. hulk has had direct impact on those events and there has obviously been direct contact between 616 and whatever designate the maestro timeline has been given.not sure about old man logan or mc2, though i thought mc2 was a totally different universe. i'd say the uncanny avengers stuff should still be canon--the effects were directly divergent from the 616 and were changed back when a a change was made IN the 616 from what i recall. that speaks to a directly divergent path so i don;t know why that wouldn't count.
i agree with opr and phil--if a change in the 616 can alter a divergent timeline, and the characters in said timeline show no real differences, there should be no reason feats in those timelines aren't recognized.
marvel's THE END series' have been argued often in the past as well.
Divergent timelines create new universes. This is the basis of the many worlds theory, ever since it was introduced in the fantastic four. What if's were always intended to be exactly that. Unfortunately comic fans online have always struggled with this concept. What if's are not less oitliers for characters than general stories.
i'd take that challenge too. it would be soooo awesome watching ds support carv..... 👆
@phil--i guess we'll agree to dissgree, in part at least. it's odd though--in uncanny avengers, the apoc twins brought about a divergent future--however that divergent future was prevented via time travel save (as happens many times in many books). but what happened after the divergence was avoided? the 616 continued on as though it never happened at all. those same characters that inhabited that divergent universe (not usable by your definition) went back and AVOIDED the divergence but now they ARE usable again since now they are back in 616? doesn't seem terribly logical, and why i think certain cases need to be allowed for.
There really is no solid canon. And to the extent there is, it is constantly changing. It's ephemeral and temporary.
So in terms of whether past events are affecting the narrative of any given story, you will have to judge that on a case by case basis.
Canon is even more irrelevant when it comes to estimating how writers and editors feel about power levels and character comparisons. You have to go case by case and look at the specifics. A What If could be a perfectly valid source if it seems like all the characters are being treated normally. On the other hand, if an alternate universe is being used to give writers freedom to look at a character in a different way or modify them in a way that would normally be unacceptable, then it's probably not a great source for battle boarders.
For example, the Silver Surfer vs. Gladiator fight that was non-Canon seems representative of the normal MU. On the other hand, some What Ifs might be totally useless for a battle board debate. Case by case.
Crossovers are definitely a special situation and should be looked at very judiciously.
Originally posted by Mr MasterLike I said: I am not referencing anyone/thing other than Hickman's portrayal of Marvel's timestream. It all takes place in the *same* universe under *his* pen. You'd know that my stance here is quite incontrovertible if you actually bothered to read the explicit material I have already provided... But you're obviously not going to, so whatevs... That's your prerogative.
I apologize likewise, but it is true:[b]Earth-10235
Adult Franklin & Valeria Richards traveled back in time to modern day Earth-616,
manipulating events to facilitate the Fantastic Four/Future Foundation's surviving their encounters
with the Council of Reeds and defeating the mad Celestials. Fantastic Four #574 (2010)http://www.marvunapp.com/master/earthteaz.htm#numbered
Always has been, always will be.
Again, Adult Franklin ... IS ... kid Franklin, just like all the "possible Future" Franklins here:
... are also the real kid-Franklin grown up.
Still, every single one, is from a possible future which makes it "alternate"
until that point in history is reached in real-time. Then, it either is, or is not.Vance Astro (reality-691) visited his grandmother as a young woman in 616, and saw himself as a young man.
This doesn't mean Vance doesn't reside in an alternate possible future of 616. (691)Many more examples from different books resembling this.
I'll tweet him about it, that way we can avoid a long debate. [/B]
Just understand that a marvunapp entry and Wiki page(lol?) hardly change Hickman's *on-panel* representation of the timestream. 🙂
I love ideas like these.
I think we should have stuff like it. Say, people agree to have an unspecified battlezone, somebody other than them chooses a random fight and who each will support, and then the loser will have to support a poster/character he normally doesn't. I'd have them fight over obscure characters, for one.
It would take a very active forum, but it would be a lot of fun.
Originally posted by Galan007
Like I said: I am not referencing anyone/thing other than Hickman's portrayal of Marvel's timestream. It all takes place in the *same* universe under *his* pen. You'd know that my stance here is quite incontrovertible if you actually bothered to read the explicit material I have already provided... But you're obviously not going to, so whatevs... That's your prerogative.Just understand that a marvunapp entry and Wiki page(lol?) hardly change Hickman's *on-panel* representation of the timestream. 🙂
yeah, but it's not just him--hickman i mean. you probably saw but that uncanny avengers arc that was brought up and that i expanded on earlier is another example of....murkiness. the apoc twins ushered in a particular future. the characters in said future were 616 characters (though since it is only a 'possible' future (???) according to one viewpoint they shouldn't be considered 616 anymore) who traveled back in time and prevented the future from happening then....picked up and carried on. in the present 616.
so does that mean the feats they accomplished are unusable while they were in that future? then they ARE usable once they return even though they were explicitly the same characters? 😕 they were 616, then...not 616, then...616 again? 😑
i'd love for someone on the other side of this to explain that the way they understand it. because it certainly isn't an isolated instance and it could easily have made a 'what if the apoc twins won?'.
examples like that really make it seem like this should be looked at on a case by case basis and discussed logically. with those capable of doing so of course. /shrug
Originally posted by leonidasThe way I see it: feats from characters native to 616 are absolutely usable, regardless of the universe/time they travel to...Unless, of course, they are altered in some way by this travel. /shrug
yeah, but it's not just him--hickman i mean. you probably saw but that uncanny avengers arc that was brought up and that i expanded on earlier is another example of....murkiness. the apoc twins ushered in a particular future. the characters in said future were 616 characters (though since it is only a 'possible' future (???) according to one viewpoint they shouldn't be considered 616 anymore) who traveled back in time and prevented the future from happening then....picked up and carried on. in the present 616.so does that mean the feats they accomplished are unusable while they were in that future? then they ARE usable once they return even though they were explicitly the same characters? 😕 they were 616, then...not 616, then...616 again? 😑
i'd love for someone on the other side of this to explain that the way they understand it. because it certainly isn't an isolated instance and it could easily have made a 'what if the apoc twins won?'.
examples like that really make it seem like this should be looked at on a case by case basis and discussed logically. with those capable of doing so of course. /shrug
But like you said: this should absolutely be looked at on a case-by-case basis, because clearly different writers in Marvel have many different opinions on how it works... They obviously do not all adhere to one strict cosmology/law, regardless what some here may think.
However, I did just think of something else: in the sequences I posted earlier, the time gem brought Cap(and co.) to that point in the distant future, and then 'ported them away after their convo with Franklin. This is quite important because under Hickman, the infinity gems ONLY function in their native universe. So if the future they traveled to would have indeed been some entirely different universe(as some are arguing), the gem would have been completely inoperable... And mind you: Cap traveled to SEVERAL points in the future with the time gem during that arc, so this was NOT an isolated incident.
Again, Hickman's take on Marvel time-flow is overtly clear. It's all 616. 🙂
Originally posted by Galan007
However, I did just think of something else: in the sequences I posted earlier, the time gem brought Cap(and co.) to that point in the distant future, and then 'ported them away after their convo with Franklin. This is quite important because under Hickman, the infinity gems ONLY function in their native universe. So if the future they traveled to would have indeed been some entirely different universe(as some are arguing), the gem would have been completely inoperable... And mind you: Cap traveled to SEVERAL points in the future with the time gem during that arc, so this was NOT an isolated incident.
if you just figured that bit out by yourself.....
that is a pretty unarguable point. and in this case i agree with hickman's take. if eternity represents all time, they a separate timeline SHOULD still remain under eternity's (the 616 eternity'😉 purview imo, regardless, hickman did make it a specific issue that the gems don't work in other universes. love to hear mrm's take on that point, and abhi's as well. that makes a few instances of futures NOT being equated with separate realities.
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
You had some serious guts to start this thread, leo. A real can of worms.
lol
i just figured it was a discussion worth having and so far i'm happy to say there has been some pretty good stuff here i think. differences of opinion to be sure, but good discussion at least all around.
my main point is sort of this--we know the characters well enough to know what is and isn't a 'common depiction' of them. if that's true, and they are shown 'commonly' then it really shouldn't matter too much where we draw feats from. imo anyway. and if someone feels a depiction or feat isn't valid, that person should be able to explain or prove why it should be considered so, same as you would need to in any debate. seems simple enough to me. /shrug
Originally posted by Galan007
The way I see it: feats from characters native to 616 are absolutely usable, regardless of the universe/time they travel to...Unless, of course, they are altered in some way by this travel. /shrugBut like you said: this should absolutely be looked at on a case-by-case basis, because clearly different writers in Marvel have many different opinions on how it works... They obviously do not all adhere to one strict cosmology/law, regardless what some here may think.
However, I did just think of something else: in the sequences I posted earlier, the time gem brought Cap(and co.) to that point in the distant future, and then 'ported them away after their convo with Franklin. This is quite important because under Hickman, the infinity gems ONLY function in their native universe. So if the future they traveled to would have indeed been some entirely different universe(as some are arguing), the gem would have been completely inoperable... And mind you: Cap traveled to SEVERAL points in the future with the time gem during that arc, so this was NOT an isolated incident.
Again, Hickman's take on Marvel time-flow is overtly clear. It's all 616. 🙂
👆
I think ever since Hickman, it's been more consistent that travelling to the future = staying in 616 continuity.