canon vs non-canon

Originally posted by darthgoober
All rules/laws are like that. The reason there's a law against murder and theft is because if there'd be a lot more people who murder and steal stuff. You're not capitulating to murderers by outlawing murder. Rules are there to establish a line to indicate a point of potential punishment. You know what you get in a forum without rules... Herochat.

it's a rather disingenuous analogy goob. this isn't the real world, and trolling isn't a capital offense, obviously. and what we're talking about here isn't a call to anarchy! 😂 it's the removal of a simple rule that no longer seems wholly logical and favors one company over the other--a situation that HAS led to many issues in my experience.

Then you're not looking at the big picture. nvr and Trick used to derail virtually every DS thread over the GDS. The non canon rule was amended to make it clear that the GDS fell under that heading and they stopped bringing it up all the time. They still believed it was valid, but they didn't argue the point. That's why in only became an issue actually being debated very recently, for years the argument was settled by the rule. The reason there's still so much nonsense running rampant is because there's still quite a bit of ambiguity in regards to the other rules.

nvr and trick? that was a LONG while ago....we have new and even worse trolls though, in case you're feeling nostalgic. 👆 and the reason there is so much nonsense running rampant is because a lot of people are morons. the ambiguity still exists--it's been highlighted in this thread quite clearly, and this rule certainly isn't hindering the trolling that still goes on. there is ambiguity. there are people capable of debating despite it. there are people who aren't and who aren't capable of debating the most blatantly obvious material, so...again, i ask who is being hindered and who is being catered to?

Then you and I have different experiences with them. In my experience they're much more likely to say something like "You know no one takes him seriously, you shouldn't even bother talking to him" and allow a problem poster to continue unabated. That doesn't mean that I'm trying to rally the townsfolk to get them removed from office, force them to change, or anything like that, they're mods on a private forum and can run it however they want(that's why I adhere even to rules/rulings that I have serious issues with), I'm simply saying that they're not as likely to step in as the old mods were to clarify points of ambiguity in the rules and other general nonsense so if we adopt an even more "open to interpretation" stance of the rules there's going to be even more BS to put up with. [/B]

i'm not suggesting open to interpretation. i'm suggesting if you think it's valid, prove it. most can't, some won't bother and the ones who know their sh!t? well maybe they'll actually have a case. in the very least it will open up avenues of discussion that will be different from the typical.

Originally posted by leonidas
it's a rather disingenuous analogy goob. this isn't the real world, and trolling isn't a capital offense, obviously. and what we're talking about here isn't a call to anarchy! 😂 it's the removal of a simple rule that no longer seems wholly logical and favors one company over the other--a situation that HAS led to many issues in my experience.

Hey I wasn't equating the two, I was simply pointing out that a rule against something isn't giving into the offenders lol.

Originally posted by leonidas
nvr and trick? that was a LONG while ago....we have new and even worse trolls though, in case you're feeling nostalgic. 👆 and the reason there is so much nonsense running rampant is because a lot of people are morons. the ambiguity still exists--it's been highlighted in this thread quite clearly, and this rule certainly isn't hindering the trolling that still goes on. there is ambiguity. there are people capable of debating despite it. there are people who aren't and who aren't capable of debating the most blatantly obvious material, so...again, i ask who is being hindered and who is being catered to?

There's worse non-sense, far worse nonsense. The reason is because while the rules have always been somewhat ambiguous back in the day it was easier to get public clarification. That's why I think a change like this is just going to lead to even more crap to deal with than already goes on.

Originally posted by leonidas
i'm not suggesting open to interpretation. i'm suggesting if you think it's valid, prove it. most can't, some won't bother and the ones who know their sh!t? well maybe they'll actually have a case. in the very least it will open up avenues of discussion that will be different from the typical.

Hey I'd be all for that kind of thing as long as it was applied equally, but it's not really the way things go down around here in general. What typically happens is that rulings are made that flat out exclude any kind discussion about one type of thing but allow discussions about everything else of a similar nature. That's why I support a more general ban against everything of the category, at least it's guaranteed to be a fair standard. If you want to try to convince the mods to allow something like JLA/Avengers and other stuff that a valid case can be made for go right ahead, I'm just saying that I don't think you'll have much luck. The ruling about WB Hulk is rooted in this rule so out right abolishing it isn't something they'll likely do lol

IDK... maybe I'm just too old with too many memories of the forum's golden age for this kind of thing. I got hooked on KMC back when it was a different place. Actually stepping in and getting directly involved makes me care too much about the state of things. When I was only involved from the shadows it made it a lot easier to go "Meh, the forum is what it is".

Originally posted by abhilegend

But in marvel ALL futures are alternate reality.

... or "possible futures" (something that may, or may not be) ... which is the same shit basically.

There is NO definitive "Future" in Marvel, and there never has been one.

Adult Franklin from Hickman's run was/is without question from an alternate future.
EVERY "Franklin" incarnation with the exception of kid-Frank is from an alternate possible future.

And it makes no difference if a cat from ANY Future visits 616 in the Present and recognizes ancestors/family.
Because anyone/everyone from ANY possible Future still derived from 616 directly or through lineage.

My friends, the only reason they're "alternate" futures is because they're either being visited prematurely:
(eg. a 616 cat entering a Future that hasn't become a reality in real time)
or:
(eg. a Future {a reality NOT in real-time} cat {like Franky and many others} entering the Present)

Basically, if you visit any point in time beyond the Present,
you enter a possible Future which remains an "alternate" Future
until real-time has reached that specific moment.
At that point and time, is when certainty about whether it is the "real" Future or can be told.

By that same token, if you enter 616 from anywhere beyond the Present-time,
then you came from a possible future, which is again "alternate" until like I explained above.

----------------------------------------------------

The only way to enter the Past by not creating an alternate reality,
is by not disturbing anything significant within that time, thus your visitation goes unnoticed by reality.
If you dabble too much,
you may endanger history forcing a reality creation to accommodate your anomalous ass.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Adult Franklin from Hickman's run was/is without question from an alternate future.
EVERY "Franklin" incarnation with the exception of kid-Frank is from an alternate possible future.

And it makes no difference if a cat from ANY Future visits 616 in the Present and recognizes ancestors/family.

Anyone who takes the time to *read* the scans will find they entail FAR more than future Franklin just recognizing his friends/family. It was made explicitly clear that Franklin's past IS the heroes' present...Which means we're dealing with the *same* universe, but at different points in its respective timeline. Further proof of this is the 'rogue planet' depicted in the second sequence -- those who followed the last Avengers series will certainly know why that is pertinent to this side of the discussion. As Franklin said: "Sent from the now...Because you needed it then." 🙂

Certainly not saying this is always how Marvel handles time-travel and such, but that IS how Hickman chose to depict it under his pen, like I previously said. /shrug

Originally posted by leonidas
in this case, which is far more current than yours--it would seem marvel disagrees. it's one of the few times (outside of an x-book with cap britain in it...) 616 is mentioned by actual name and the only time to my knowledge it is categorically associated with a future. so maybe thoughts have changed. /shrug

now regardless, it doesn't change your overall point in that marvel has historically linked futures to different realities. but that shouldn't in and of itself be sufficient cause to simply ignore futures that DO link directly to the 616, or that diverge directly from the present continuity. not sure if you're saying that or not, but wanted it clear since that it sort of the backbone of the discussion.

opr and galan both brought up cases where those "alt realities" bear directly on the 616, and have cause and consequence tied specifically to the present. i think it's those types of ties that should reflect the 'debatable-ness' of a feat or character in question. burden of proof is on the person proclaiming the feat--show the ties to 616 and they should be good to go if it's substantial enough. the standard of throwing away alt timelines makes no sense to me and certainly favors one company over the other. /shrug

Not that it matters. Here GOTG Surfer clearly remembers the events of 616 reality and it is even captioned by the editor. It also noted that GOTG reality is split from 616 reality several years ago.

There can't be a better way to show the futures are indeed separate realities.

Originally posted by Galan007

Sorry, but that's not exactly true... Adult Franklin debunked that notion in these scenes

Earth-10235 Adult Franklin & Valeria Richards traveled back in time to modern day Earth-616,
manipulating events to facilitate the Fantastic Four/Future Foundation's surviving their encounters
with the Council of Reeds and defeating the mad Celestials. Fantastic Four #574 (2010)

http://www.marvunapp.com/master/earthteaz.htm#numbered

Always has been, always will be.

Again, Adult Franklin ... IS ... kid Franklin, just like all the "possible Future" Franklins here:

http://marvel.wikia.com/index.php?title=Special%3ASearch&redirs=0&search=Franklin%20Richards&fulltext=Search&ns0=1&ns1=1&ns2=1&ns3=1&ns4=1&ns5=1&ns6=1&ns7=1&ns8=1&ns9=1&ns10=1&ns11=1&ns12=1&ns13=1&ns14=1&ns1

... are also the real kid-Franklin grown up.

Still, every single one, is from a possible future which makes it "alternate"
until that point in history is reached in real-time. Then, it either is, or is not.

Originally posted by Galan007

It was made explicitly clear that Franklin's past IS the heroes' present...

Many more examples from different books resembling this.

Originally posted by Galan007

but that IS how Hickman chose to depict it under his pen

Originally posted by abhilegend
It's the only instance that I know of regarding 2099. That makes it an anamoly rather than a rule.

Not that it matters. Here GOTG Surfer clearly remembers the events of 616 reality and it is even captioned by the editor. It also noted that GOTG reality is split from 616 reality several years ago.

There can't be a better way to show the futures are indeed separate realities.

sure but the changes that happened to split their future happened years ago. and there were also several instances that showed a strong connection between 616 and that universe, changes to 616 were reflected in gotg. would feats done by ss in gotg series be usable? not according to the forum, but i don't see why not. before becoming keeper he was the same, so i don't see why it would be a problem. galan and opr have also both shown discrepancies to your "rule," which isn't really a rule, but more of something marvel typically does.

If characters split off into divergent timelines from 616, they're not usable. The moment it's not 'Earth 616', it's irrelevant to mainstream characters.

Otherwise, we'd be able to use all What Ifs.

not quite the same imo. what ifs come with entirely different histories, different timelines have characters with the same histories that go in different directions. it seems silly to me to say a character who has only recently split from the main time can't be used when they are exactly the same character. and like i said, it greatly favors dc since, well, pretty much everything is usable. there would be obvious exceptions. cosmologically speaking i'm still unclear what an alternate timeline even is. if eternity encompasses all of time, it seems all the timelines that stem from earth 616 should be considered 616 reality. /shrug

of course this is all hypothetical. i doubt the rule will be overturned--i won't even ask for it to be. but i think more should be allowed in debates than currently is.

Originally posted by leonidas
what ifs come with entirely different histories, different timelines have characters with the same histories that go in different directions.

Characters in What Ifs are proven time and time again to have murky powerlevels, even though your logic of "well, it's the same character in a different future" would make sense. It's just how it is - once it's a different Universe altogether, it's not valid for the main one.

Forum rules say What ifs depend on when they split off.

Which makes sense.

i've tried outlining the differences in the past between alternate/parallel universes and alt/divergent timelines. it's a lot more than i feel like getting into here and it's not exactly the place for it. suffice to say i disagree with you--or at least i don't always agree in that there should be exceptions to the rule in marvel imo. or come up with some analagous ruling for dc maybe.

hypertime is a clear exception to the dc 'all is canon' rule. even though hypertime has been referenced recently and is likely, technically, part of this new cosmology in dc, events in those alt realities aren't canon. maybe there needs to be MORE discernment, rather than less. goob would be happy to hear me say that.....

What Ifs are the equivalent of this never happened in the main Universe, but what if it happened in this alternate Universe.

Time travel stories are the equivalent of this happened to the characters in this Universe, but somebody went back in time and changed it.

The distinction is very clear - one is a reality that was never the main one, while the latter is the opposite.

not so clear at all. what if logan killed the hulk is a famous what if. same reality until logan killed hulk. if in that story logan went back in time and didn't kill hulk would that still be considered 616 since....he really didn't kill him? if it's a truly separate universe, no, it wouldn't be 616. if it's an alt timeline, then yeah, it would be as has happened with the reigning for example and any number of x-stories.

the distinction isn't really that clear at all and is often open to interpretation. /shrug

at ds--i'd head someone say that about what ifs. is that an official rule?

Originally posted by leonidas
[B]not so clear at all. what if logan killed the hulk is a famous what if. same reality until logan killed hulk. if in that story logan went back in time and didn't kill hulk would that still be considered 616 since....he really didn't kill him?

Wolverine killing Hulk, in your first example, is an entirely different reality - it was never 616.

If Wolverine kills Hulk in the 616 reality, then goes back in time and changes the reality, it means that the actual Wolverine that we read of is capable of doing it, not an alternate Universe Wolverine.

but up until the time he kills him the realities are the same. it is at the 'killing' that the divergence occurs. at least i think so. your thought is that the universes were NEVER the same? different logan and hulk altogether ie--never the 616 versions? sometimes the opening page of a what if talks about a divergence at a certain point--ie--616 splits off to become a new timeline but only AT that point. if true, that would mean logan and hulk were the 616 characters, and that yes, logan IS capable of killing that era's hulk

other times the openings of a what if seem to indicate events take place in an altogether different universe. i had scans to show this at one point....

i'm still curious about the rule ds cited. it makes sense to me. /shrug

Originally posted by leonidas
but up until the time he kills him the realities are the same. it is at the 'killing' that the divergence occurs. at least i think so. your thought is that the universes were NEVER the same?

Time travel =/= What Ifs.

in SOME cases they are all over. and i'm not advocating use of what if (or if they are used, used sparingly with appropriate caveats). i'm saying the characters ARE 616--in fact the universe itself may well BE 616-until the instant hulk dies--THEN they aren't. but if they go back in time and logan doesn't kill him, they are essentially their counterparts again. and may even be considered 616 again. to be truly other-universal characters, they can't have EVER been 616 to begin with. not sure if that is the case with that particular book.

if it's not, how can they be 616 one instant, and the next not? seems silly to me. and it is meaningless anyway. logan should have been able to kill that version of hulk. nothing outrageous about that imo. i think the rule ds cited is a good one--if it's real.

Of course you can't use it,but up until that point, they are the same Wolverine, no?

Leo,never question me again.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t577880.html

BZ me, and the loser has to leave forever.

Edit : not harsh enough. Loser has to support Carver in his arguments, no matter what,for a whole month