Originally posted by MythLord
Vader's speed feats in Lords of the Sith also aren't up to stack with the stuff Malgus has up his sleeve, and neither is his TK.And Kenobi isn't his peer in the Force, no. You have to account the source where they fight, in which case Vader did not use his telekinesis in that fight despite his regular abusal of it in newer material, unless you'd like to argue ESB Luke and Korbin(lol) are Vader's peers. 😬
2. Vader's malachor showing is > any of Malgus's
3. Terrible examples. Vader was holding back vs ESB Luke and toying with him. Vader actually did abuse tk vs corbin and unlike ben, vader didn't consider corbin worthy of his time.
You can't use out of universe excuses for what happens in universe. The idea that Ben isn't a peer for Vader is asinine when he's shown as Vader's equal(or near equal)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
1. So casually and accurately deflecting the blasterfire of dozens of blaster bolts back at their shooters, turning the air red, and dodging lightning fast strikes from lileks isn't sufficient? What are Malgus's speed feats?
Yeah, none of that is on Malgus' level. The blaster bolts in canon are considerably slower than in Legends. Turning the air red basically means summoning afterimages, which everyone and their mothers should be capable of doing in Star Wars.
Malgus' speed feats of dancing with someone who can move in mili/microseconds, combatants that speedblitz elite Sith Warriors and percieving blaster bolts in slow motion(or something similar to that, anyways) is easily better.
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
2. Vader's malachor showing is > any of Malgus's
You wank that feat too much. Let's clear up some stuff:
Firstly, the feat happened on a Dark Side nexus apparently, so Vader was amped when he performed it.
Secondly, you're ignoring area of effect. Vader didn't shield himself from the entire explosion, but rather the shockwaves that were going to engulf his body which makes the feat significantly less impressive when Gantoris or Zannah can perform similar feats as children.
Thirdly, Vader was still heavily injured from the explosion and limping. And finally, we don't know how much of the survival should be attributed to his Force Barrier and how much to his suit given his suit is also built to be insanely durable.
So there's too many variables to actually consider this that impressive a feat, and there's no indication Ben can come close to replicating it.
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
3. Terrible examples. Vader was holding back vs ESB Luke and toying with him. Vader actually did abuse tk vs corbin and unlike ben, vader didn't consider corbin worthy of his time.
Vader was also angered at one point during his duel with ESB Luke, but opted to keep driving him back in a saber contest instead of doing the sensible thing of TKing him in place.
Yeah, he used one single Force Push against Karbin, which is hardly indicative of anything. It's not really lavishly abusing the Force, at all. lol
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
You can't use out of universe excuses for what happens in universe. The idea that Ben isn't a peer for Vader is asinine when he's shown as Vader's equal(or near equal)
Yes, you can, lol. PIS, WIS or CIS are very much things that apply to any fictional franchise. Just because you don't like it is your problem; a variability in sources is something that should be considered in order to reconcile inconsistencies.
And no, nothing notes Ben is Vader's near-equal in the Force. They just dueled.
Originally posted by MythLord
Yeah, none of that is on Malgus' level. The blaster bolts in canon are considerably slower than in Legends. Turning the air red basically means summoning afterimages, which everyone and their mothers should be capable of doing in Star WarsMalgus' speed feats of dancing with someone who can move in mili/microseconds, combatants that speedblitz elite Sith Warriors and percieving blaster bolts in slow motion(or something similar to that, anyways) is easily better.
Originally posted by MythLord
You wank that feat too much. Let's clear up some stuff:
Firstly, the feat happened on a Dark Side nexus apparently, so Vader was amped when he performed it.
Secondly, you're ignoring area of effect. Vader didn't shield himself from the entire explosion, but rather the shockwaves that were going to engulf his body which makes the feat significantly less impressive when Gantoris or Zannah can perform similar feats as children.
Thirdly, Vader was still heavily injured from the explosion and limping. And finally, we don't know how much of the survival should be attributed to his Force Barrier and how much to his suit given his suit is also built to be insanely durable.So there's too many variables to actually consider this that impressive a feat, and there's no indication Ben can come close to replicating it.
1. True, however the amp is obviously minor given how Ahsoka was able to fight evenly for more than a minute despite Vader authoritatively being at least >/= and holistically superior. It's certainly not enough to bridge the gap between what Vader did and anything Malgus has done
2. Given the explosion was potent enough to atomize ships, the feat's still far above what Malgus has ever accomplished
3., That Vader's cape isn't damaged makes clear he fully tanked the blast with his barrier. His limping can be attributed to he effort it prolly took, a moot point considering Malgus was drenched in sweat after his best feat.
4. Even considering the variables, there's no way getting around that what Vader did is>>>what we've seen Malgus do. And that Ben can replicate or near replicate this showing power is clear using common sense, though that seems to have momentarily alluded you 🙂
Originally posted by MythLord
Vader was also angered at one point during his duel with ESB Luke, but opted to keep driving him back in a saber contest instead of doing the sensible thing of TKing him in place.
Yeah, he used one single Force Push against Karbin, which is hardly indicative of anything. It's not really lavishly abusing the Force, at all. lol
2.LMAO. How "lavishly abused" Karbin was isn't remotely relevant here. Vader used the force to defeat Karbin who was displayed as a clear inferior to him. Logic dictates that when facing Ben, Vader would absolutely use the force to win if he could, given he's done so in almost every other fight.
Originally posted by MythLord
Yes, you can, lol. PIS, WIS or CIS are very much things that apply to any fictional franchise. Just because you don't like it is your problem; a variability in sources is something that should be considered in order to reconcile inconsistencies.
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
1. True, however the amp is obviously minor given how Ahsoka was able to fight evenly for more than a minute despite Vader authoritatively being at least >/= and holistically superior.
Ahsoka was being driven back decisively, however. I mean, I agree the amp prolly wasn't worth too much, but it is something I should note.
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
2. Given the explosion was potent enough to atomize ships, the feat's still far above what Malgus has ever accomplished
It didn't atomize a ship, it disintegrated it. And like I said, shielding your person only would technically be an area-of-effect sort of thing. So Vader didn't tank the full explosion, which also failed to fully destroy a single temple even. Once again, feats even kids have performed on instinct in the EU.
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
3.That Vader's cape isn't damaged makes clear he fully tanked the blast with his barrier. His limping can be attributed to he effort it prolly took, a moot point considering Malgus was drenched in sweat after his best feat.
You're using Vader's cape as an argument? His cape was fine after a lightsaber strike to the back even though it injured him.
Since when are people injured and limping by errecting barriers? Lmao
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
4. Even considering the variables, there's no way getting around that what Vader did is>>>what we've seen Malgus do. And that Ben can replicate or near replicate this showing power is clear using common sense, though that seems to have momentarily alluded you 🙂
It really isn't a lot better than any of Malgus' feats, if it's even better to begin with. And so far, there's no common sense to your claim.
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
1. Vader was enraged in canon?2.LMAO. How "lavishly abused" Karbin was isn't remotely relevant here. Vader used the force to defeat Karbin who was displayed as a clear inferior to him. Logic dictates that when facing Ben, Vader would absolutely use the force to win if he could, given he's done so in almost every other fight.
1. Apparently, yes.
2. That doesn't mean jack-sh!t, given he only used a Force Push or two after a lengthy duel. I can just as easily argue that maybe he didn't use it on Kenobi because the battle was relatively short and if it raged any longer he would have.
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Sorry, but just because you don't like something doesn't serve as sufficient excuse to cry pis. It's obvious Vader would use tk on Kenobi if he thought it would do anything of note. The obvious explanation is that Vader isn't powerful enough to tk Kenobi significantly. Rather logical given they're combatively shown as near equals. You'll need more than an appeal to ignorance to refute that.
This isn't me not liking -- I'm a Kenobi wanker, remember? -- this is me finding your argument retarded because you fail to take into account the variability of the sources in question. The Original Trilogy, heck even the Prequel Trilogy, doesn't show a lot of Force abuse. Nothing done directly, anyways.
We know the likes of Yoda and Sidious are considerably more powerful than the likes of Dooku and Mace in the Force yet they never chained in any Force attacks mid-fight. We know Maul is more powerful than Qui-Gon Jinn and Obi-Wan but he only chained in a Force Push once when going solo against Kenobi. At best, you'll get a push or two but that's it.
And even not taking into account the variability of sources, you have to consider the length of the duel. When Vader TKed Karbin or Ahsoka, it was after a prolongued fight. He faced Obi for like thirty seconds before Kenobi willingly let Vader strike him down. We know Ben is comparable to Vader as a swordsman, though that Vader is superior. There's no conclusion about Force powers to be made, however.
It seemed to be Lucas's indication that Ben was near Vader in Force strength give his early concepts for WHY Vader didn't attempt to use the Force on him.
"The idea of Vader using telekinetic powers during his fight with Luke was created during story meetings. There was concern, however, that the audience might think back to the first film and wonder why Vader didn't use all his powers on Ben; but this was easily explained by the fact that Ben was probably stronger than Vader. George Lucas and Leigh Brackett also discussed the different levels of the Force; maybe Ben was a six, Vader was a four, Luke is now at level two." - Star Wars: The Annotated Screenplays.
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
It seemed to be Lucas's indication that Ben was near Vader in Force strength give his early concepts for WHY Vader didn't attempt to use the Force on him."The idea of Vader using telekinetic powers during his fight with Luke was created during story meetings. There was concern, however, that the audience might think back to the first film and wonder why Vader didn't use all his powers on Ben; but this was easily explained by the fact that Ben was probably stronger than Vader. George Lucas and Leigh Brackett also discussed the different levels of the Force; maybe Ben was a six, Vader was a four, Luke is now at level two." - Star Wars: The Annotated Screenplays.
That implies Ben is considerably above Vader. When was this said? Because if it was in the 70's or 80's, they had no feats outside ANH/ESB/ROTJ. Vader's feats are considerably better now.
Originally posted by MythLord
Ahsoka was being driven back decisively, however. I mean, I agree the amp prolly wasn't worth too much, but it is something I should note.
Originally posted by MythLord
It didn't atomize a ship, it disintegrated it. And like I said, shielding your person only would technically be an area-of-effect sort of thing. So Vader didn't tank the full explosion, which also failed to fully destroy a single temple even. Once again, feats even kids have performed on instinct in the EU.
Originally posted by MythLord
You're using Vader's cape as an argument? His cape was fine after a lightsaber strike to the back even though it injured him.
Originally posted by MythLord
Since when are people injured and limping by errecting barriers? Lmao
Mind showing a scan of the unripped cape. Because if the cape actually tanked the attack, that the lightsaber reached Vader's back is suspicious indeed.
Originally posted by MythLord
It really isn't a lot better than any of Malgus' feats, if it's even better to begin with. And so far, there's no common sense to your claim.
Originally posted by MythLord
1. Apparently, yes.Scan/quote?
[QUOTE=16280297]Originally posted by MythLord
2. That doesn't mean jack-sh!t, given he only used a Force Push or two after a lengthy duel. I can just as easily argue that maybe he didn't use it on Kenobi because the battle was relatively short and if it raged any longer he would have.
Secondly there was no lengthy duel, the fight lasted three panels with Karbin pressing an offense and Vader dismissing him with the force
Thirdly the fight vs Kenobi took longer than the amount of time it took Vader to use the force on Karbin. In general, Vader's makes use of the force very quickly into his canon fights
Originally posted by MythLord
This isn't me not liking -- I'm a Kenobi wanker, remember? -- this is me finding your argument retarded because you fail to take into account the variability of the sources in question. The Original Trilogy, heck even the Prequel Trilogy, doesn't show a lot of Force abuse. Nothing done directly, anyways.
Yes their is a variety of sources, but unless you can give sources of the fight in canon that put Vader above Ben force wise, the point is moot. And holistically the claim that Ben wouldn't be a Vader level force user is nonsensical. Ben is very clearly potrayed as being a rival for Vader, why are Vader's force abilities exempt from this?
Originally posted by MythLord
We know the likes of Yoda and Sidious are considerably more powerful than the likes of Dooku and Mace in the Force yet they never chained in any Force attacks mid-fight. We know Maul is more powerful than Qui-Gon Jinn and Obi-Wan but he only chained in a Force Push once when going solo against Kenobi. At best, you'll get a push or two but that's it.
Originally posted by MythLord
And even not taking into account the variability of sources, you have to consider the length of the duel. When Vader TKed Karbin or Ahsoka, it was after a prolongued fight. He faced Obi for like thirty seconds before Kenobi willingly let Vader strike him down. We know Ben is comparable to Vader as a swordsman, though that Vader is superior. There's no conclusion about Force powers to be made, however.
Originally posted by thesithmaster
That implies Ben is considerably above Vader. When was this said? Because if it was in the 70's or 80's, they had no feats outside ANH/ESB/ROTJ. Vader's feats are considerably better now.
And that's fine. I'm just saying it seems to indicate that Ben is at least approaching Vader in power.
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
She was driven back, after more than a minute of fighting better or roughly evenly(50 seconds off screen where Ahsoka had barely been driven outside the gate).
Actually, it wasn't "barely driven outside", it was consistently and considerably pressed back. What fight are you watching?
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
The parts of the temple it hit were completely destroyed. Regardless, I'm not considering it better than anything Malgus has done due to the size of the explosion, but the potency.
Not really... And like I keep saying, this feat is at best a multi-city-block level explosion in potency and Vader only shielded his person from it which is absolutely nothing impressive, especially since it clearly didn't succeed fully as he's injured and a good deal of the damage soak would come from his suit.
You've yet to counter kids in the EU performing the exact same feats.
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Mind giving me a scan of the unaffected cape? Given the lightsaber reached vader's back, I find the assertion of yours dubious
Mind showing a scan of the unripped cape. Because if the cape actually tanked the attack, that the lightsaber reached Vader's back is suspicious indeed.
Cape seems fine to me. It could just be, *gasps*, that artists and creators don't really give a damn about stupid little details like a cape being scratched or torn?
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Vader expended his energy
That doesn't mean he'd be limping, with smoke coming off of him. That's not how the Force works. Unless the barrier took absolutely everything iota of energy out of him in which case it's not a combatively applicable feat.
He's either injured by the explosion or errecting a barrier that strong leaves him an invalid. Both make Vader look equally pathetic, so choose. 👆
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
How is what Malgus is doing remotely comparable?
Because Malgus' feats are actually better? And he gets scaling from characters who have performed similar feats? Shrugging off explosions is nothing new in the EU.
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
First off, Vader didn't just push him, Vader pushed Karbin into the air and then proceeded to slam him into the ground.
What fight are you reading? Vader just pushed him:
And nothing more.
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Secondly there was no lengthy duel, the fight lasted three panels with Karbin pressing an offense and Vader dismissing him with the force
I assume you just looked up the small portion of the fight from Darth Vader #15. The fight takes place across two comics and most of it is actually off-screen. And by timing it we realize it's actually a considerably longer duel than the one he had with Obi-Wan.
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Thirdly the fight vs Kenobi took longer than the amount of time it took Vader to use the force on Karbin. In general, Vader's makes use of the force very quickly into his canon fights
Nah, even in-canon he waits until he's pressed significantly in a duel before he actually starts abusing the Force. So what I'm getting at from this is... Ben didn't even press him that much ins aber combat.
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
You're not really a Ben Kenobi wanker at all tbh but that wasn't what I was getting at. The "inconsistency" you're trying to reconcile is that Ben doesn't have feats as opposed to Vader, no? Absence of Evidence=/Evidence of absence.
No, it's not lacking feats, it's lacking any form of coherent proof besides your gut instinct and a short-length duel to suggest Kenobi's in any way comparable to Vader in the Force.
We're taking about the same guy who hurt his back from fighting Tusken Raiders, needed concentration to lift and throw a human, needed to be in a state of meditation to lift rocks and bones, has noted he's out of practice, had trouble with a Bounty Hunter C3PO managed to hurt at one point(lol), etc.
Pardon me for thinking this isn't a Vader-level Force user just because he clashed blades with Vader for a while.
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Yes their is a variety of sources, but unless you can give sources of the fight in canon that put Vader above Ben force wise, the point is moot. And holistically the claim that Ben wouldn't be a Vader level force user is nonsensical. Ben is very clearly potrayed as being a rival for Vader, why are Vader's force abilities exempt from this?
He's not portayed as a rival at all. No source notes this. They only fought briefly and then Ben let Vader kill him. Like I said: If this was Legends, you'd have a point. But this is Canon where nothing notes Ben is ~ Vader besides a 30 second long duel and that's insanely stretching it.
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Mace is considerably less powerful than Sidious in canon? And this is all fine, but if you have canonical shizz that makes it clear said character is>> another character, then this doesn't apply to vader vs ben where there's no indication of this.
There's also no indication of Ben being ~ Vader. It's ultimately an appeal to incredulity. Neither of us have proof of our claims because no proof exists for you to use and for me to counter. Thus we should drop the point altogether as Ben clearly isn't a Vader level Force user.
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Vader only tk's Ahsoka when her defenses down, likely because Ahsoka, unlike Karbin is shown as a near equal for Vader
note: if we actually want to go out of universe, the explanation given for vader not tking ben is ben's too powerful
How were Ahsoka's defenses down? Also, yeah, near equal to Vader in the Force yet got incapped by a leeway Force Push. -_-
