Originally posted by MythLord
Actually, it wasn't "barely driven outside", it was consistently and considerably pressed back. What fight are you watching?Not really... And like I keep saying, this feat is at best a multi-city-block level explosion in potency and Vader only shielded his person from it which is absolutely nothing impressive, especially since it clearly didn't succeed fully as he's injured and a good deal of the damage soak would come from his suit.
You've yet to counter kids in the EU performing the exact same feats.
Cape seems fine to me. It could just be, *gasps*, that artists and creators don't really give a damn about stupid little details like a cape being scratched or torn?
That doesn't mean he'd be limping, with smoke coming off of him. That's not how the Force works. Unless the barrier took absolutely everything iota of energy out of him in which case it's not a combatively applicable feat.
He's either injured by the explosion or errecting a barrier that strong leaves him an invalid. Both make Vader look equally pathetic, so choose. 👆
Because Malgus' feats are actually better? And he gets scaling from characters who have performed similar feats? Shrugging off explosions is nothing new in the EU.
What fight are you reading? Vader just pushed him:
And nothing more.
I assume you just looked up the small portion of the fight from Darth Vader #15. The fight takes place across two comics and most of it is actually off-screen. And by timing it we realize it's actually a considerably longer duel than the one he had with Obi-Wan.
Nah, even in-canon he waits until he's pressed significantly in a duel before he actually starts abusing the Force. So what I'm getting at from this is... Ben didn't even press him that much ins aber combat.
No, it's not lacking feats, it's lacking any form of coherent proof besides your gut instinct and a short-length duel to suggest Kenobi's in any way comparable to Vader in the Force.
We're taking about the same guy who hurt his back from fighting Tusken Raiders, needed concentration to lift and throw a human, needed to be in a state of meditation to lift rocks and bones, has noted he's out of practice, had trouble with a Bounty Hunter C3PO managed to hurt at one point(lol), etc.Pardon me for thinking this isn't a Vader-level Force user just because he clashed blades with Vader for a while.
He's not portayed as a rival at all. No source notes this. They only fought briefly and then Ben let Vader kill him. Like I said: If this was Legends, you'd have a point. But this is Canon where nothing notes Ben is ~ Vader besides a 30 second long duel and that's insanely stretching it.
There's also no indication of Ben being ~ Vader. It's ultimately an appeal to incredulity. Neither of us have proof of our claims because no proof exists for you to use and for me to counter. Thus we should drop the point altogether as Ben clearly isn't a Vader level Force user.
How were Ahsoka's defenses down? Also, yeah, near equal to Vader in the Force yet got incapped by a leeway Force Push. -_-
1. I assume you're referring to when the episode cuts back to Ahsoka vs Vader after they've been fighting for 50 seconds off screen? Note, before the cutaway Vader is fighting Ahsoka right before the temple entrance, 50 seconds later, they're still fighting at the gate with Ahsoka stonewalling him. Obviously Vader wasn't steadily driving Ahsoka back t that point which means they were fighting with rough parity for about 50 seconds in addition to the 30 seconds or so where Ahsoka demonstated an edge against Vader. That Vader steadily drove Ahsoka back for the last leg of the fight hardly indicates significant superiority of any kind overall.
This also brings up another point that Vader's performance vs Ahsoka isn't far off Maul's. Maul off course is Kenobi's inferior. Given that Kenobi has superiority to someone himself performing similarily to Vader, it stands to reason Kenobi would be close to if not outright equal to Vader.
So even if you don't find evenly fighting for 30 seconds as an indication of anything, Kenobi's superiority to Maul is sufficient for Kenobi to be placed as Vader level.
2. What? How are you equating the size of an explosion to it's potency? Destroying a city block isn't at all as potent as doing this to ships with the least potent parts of an explosion:
https://youtu.be/UCo7wpCnwL0?t=39s
Note, Vader was smack dab in the middle of said explosion(he was a step or so away from being in arms length of the explosion's source meaning what Vader tanked is far more potent than what we see above.
Not to mention what said kid did was an unwilling tapping of her potential rather than what she's actually capable of. The feat's not al all comparable and is totally bunk to bring up.
3. Malgus exerting all his power and failing to hold a freighter in place isn't comparable to Vader presumable expending near all his energy in successfully tanking a explosion potent enough to disintergrate ships.
I hope this scaling isn't based off the kids who's ability to destroy a city block is supposedly comparable to a far larger and more potent explosion Vader dealt with?
4. So is it bad animation that absolutely none of Vader's suit shows any visible damage? (smokw isn't coming out of it, it's coming from the environment around him) That there was a contradiction in another source doesn't change what this source indicates, Vader fully tanked that shizz with a barrier.
That Vader exerted near all his effort is pointless to bring up when you remember that Malgus exerted even more effort with his best tk feat.
5. And later brought down a statue on him. clear abuse of tk unless you think Vader has a moral quarrel with directly tk'ing force users. Frankly that Vader made use of tk is sufficient.
6. Fair enough there.
7. As noted, there's Maul. And no idea why you're trying to use feats from Kenobi shortly after ROTS as a way to place Kenobi as of ANH.
8. Kenobi's superiority over maul is a solid indication of Kenobi Vader that Kenobi's brief demonstrated parity with Vader lends credence to.
9. Vader only pushes Ahsoka when she's off balance and in no position to defend herself. And LMAO at how you're trying to pass of a bfr as a legit ko with the force here.
I do actually think they're portraying Ben Kenobi as a near equal to Vader. Not sure about the TK aspect though. I'm sure Vader will still be superior in that department, but probably has to find the opportune moment to ragdoll Ben.
Still I don't think it's been addressed at all, given the lack of TK usage in ANH, but also due to there being Zero display of TK in his fight against Maul.
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
1. I assume you're referring to when the episode cuts back to Ahsoka vs Vader after they've been fighting for 50 seconds off screen? Note, before the cutaway Vader is fighting Ahsoka right before the temple entrance, 50 seconds later, they're still fighting at the gate with Ahsoka stonewalling him. Obviously Vader wasn't steadily driving Ahsoka back t that point which means they were fighting with rough parity for about 50 seconds in addition to the 30 seconds or so where Ahsoka demonstated an edge against Vader. That Vader steadily drove Ahsoka back for the last leg of the fight hardly indicates significant superiority of any kind overall.
Let's analyse the fight for a bit, shall we?
Point 1: https://youtu.be/0UVJSJOiLk4?t=129
The first seven seconds of the duel seems fairly even. They clash blades, Ahsoka evades a few strikes from Vader and she even manages to TK Vader.
Point 2: https://youtu.be/0UVJSJOiLk4?t=138
Here, we see Vader recomposses and he already begins to drive Ahsoka back and rapidly at that. Tano's saving grace is her speed and agility which allows her to dodge Vader's strikes. But other than that, she's clearly being driven back considerably and consistently. After only a few bladeclashes, she's already swiftly giving ground.
Point 3: https://youtu.be/0UVJSJOiLk4?t=153
There's obviously a considerable gap between where they were fighting before the cut-away and where they are now. I actually looked closely where they were in comparison to Ezra before they went outside the gate and the distance is approximately:
As you can see, fairly considerable. There's at least 20-30 meters and it shows Ahsoka was getting consistently driven back. We see this still holds true as the fight progresses and Tano becomes more and more desperate. So before the cutaway Vader's rapidly driving her back, when we cut back to their duel the distance they crossed is considerable and then a closer look at the fight shows Ahsoka's clearly on the losing side.
She's in no way his near equal.
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
This also brings up another point that Vader's performance vs Ahsoka isn't far off Maul's. Maul off course is Kenobi's inferior. Given that Kenobi has superiority to someone himself performing similarily to Vader, it stands to reason Kenobi would be close to if not outright equal to Vader.So even if you don't find evenly fighting for 30 seconds as an indication of anything, Kenobi's superiority to Maul is sufficient for Kenobi to be placed as Vader level.
What? Maul's performance against Ahsoka is in no way similar to Vader's. Vader's is considerably better since Tano stonewalled most of what Maul was bringing to the table whereas most of Vader's attacks drove her on her backfoot.
Your scaling is bunk.
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
2. What? How are you equating the size of an explosion to it's potency? Destroying a city block isn't at all as potent as doing this to ships with the least potent parts of an explosion:
https://youtu.be/UCo7wpCnwL0?t=39s
Note, Vader was smack dab in the middle of said explosion(he was a step or so away from being in arms length of the explosion's source meaning what Vader tanked is far more potent than what we see above.
That's all well and good, but you're still ignoring all the circumstances I've mentioned in my first post to you. Actually counter my points, or don't waste my time.
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Not to mention what said kid did was an unwilling tapping of her potential rather than what she's actually capable of. The feat's not al all comparable and is totally bunk to bring up.
But she was still a kid who, despite having a nice bit of potential, shouldn't be capable of licking the heel of Malgus' or Vader's boots.
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
3. Malgus exerting all his power and failing to hold a freighter in place isn't comparable to Vader presumable expending near all his energy in successfully tanking a explosion potent enough to disintergrate ships.
A considerably pre-prime Malgus, yeah. He had several power-boosts throughout Decieved and then another noticeable one by the time he was a False Emperor. So this argument's also bunk.
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
4. So is it bad animation that absolutely none of Vader's suit shows any visible damage? (smokw isn't coming out of it, it's coming from the environment around him) That there was a contradiction in another source doesn't change what this source indicates, Vader fully tanked that shizz with a barrier.
The animation shows off Vader limping and charred, I think that's enough. And this isn't the first time the cape wasn't damaged from sh!t it should have been. Nobody cares about what some RockyDanavong kunt on KMC will nitpick at. 👆
He's limping. That doesn't happen from using all of your Force power, that happens because of injury. You can't be this dense.
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
That Vader exerted near all his effort is pointless to bring up when you remember that Malgus exerted even more effort with his best tk feat.
I mean, if he was limping then he apparently was either injured or he wasted literally all of his Force reserves. Malgus clearly didn't use all of his power to keep the freighter there since right after this feat he proceeds to fight Aryn Leneer and win. Vader, on the other hand, looks like he couldn't fight Zett Jukassa and win after that explosion.
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
5. And later brought down a statue on him. clear abuse of tk unless you think Vader has a moral quarrel with directly tk'ing force users. Frankly that Vader made use of tk is sufficient.
That's not directly TKing someone, though. He might've shoved objects at Obi's general direction had any been around, but none were.
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
7. As noted, there's Maul. And no idea why you're trying to use feats from Kenobi shortly after ROTS as a way to place Kenobi as of ANH.
Those feats were closer to ANH than RotS, as Obi at this point considers himself a relic. And there's nothing to note he's grown in any appreciable way.
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
9. Vader only pushes Ahsoka when she's off balance and in no position to defend herself. And LMAO at how you're trying to pass of a bfr as a legit ko with the force here.
She was off-balance? How? Also, she was knocked unconscious only to regain consciousness a minute or so later.
Aight wollf, forgive me for mah formatting coz mobile be k.
1. They weren't at all fighting evenly, indeed Ahsoka has the clear edge. She lands the only physical hit of the fight and then exploits a flaw in Vader' offense(as Vader did with Ahsoka' defense) to tk him while dancing around him. If Vader's strength based advantage means something so does Ahsoka's at the start here.
2. You've managed to note Vader driving her back with her strength but seem to have failed to note her dancing around him with his speed, and just as the screen cuts off, we see Ahsoka start to circle around him again. In no way does that imply Vader was clearly superior
3. Most importantly your arrow is off, at 2:25, before the 50 seconds off screen, they're already under the gate. Which would mean that after 50 seconds of fighting they've moved from under the gate to right outside the gate. They've clearly been giving very little ground to each other implying parity. Add the start of the fight where Ahsoka had an edge and that translates to more than a minuite of Ahsoka beating\matching Vader, not to mention when we cut back we see Ahsoka stonewalling Vader . Vader finally prevailing(and ending with he fight prematurely via bfr) hardly translates to a significant edge. And I haven't even noted the nexus(as well as Vader training her which cancels out her being trained for big opponents). There's no way to spin this fight as being significantly one-sided. Vader won a close and contentious affair rendering them near equals.
4. Given that both maul and Ahsoka fought her for about a minuite roughly evenly(Vader gains an advantage afterwards) their performances are very similar.
My scaling works just fine.
5. All have been addressed.
You've conceded the nexus would be minimal, I didn't mention the area of effect here. I'll get to the success and energy expended for the barrier.
6. It's good then the feat isn't remotely comparable to Vader's. Not sure why you keep she was repeating that she was a kid when this had nothing to with the feat. It's not a showing of actualized power, it's a showing of potential which she can't consistently replicate. Not only is the showing outclassed by Vader's, it's not even a legitimate one.
7. So I'm assuming you have something for Malthus' prime which is comparable? Or are you going to spitball that said vague amounts of growth are enough to compensate for the vastly inferior showing.
8. Wollf, Malgus fsiked to perform the feat despite drenchng in sweat, there's no way vader expended more energy with a feat he succeeded. And check the video. There's smoke around Vader covering the environment, not from him. There's no sign of damage anywhere on his body. All we have is Vader limping due to expending nearly all his energy which is better than giving it your all and then reaching your limit making you fail to keep up the feat.
9. Let me get this straight, Vader is willing to slam a statue on someone, but his morals stop him from choking someone? Is Vader a Jedi?
10. Was this not 5 years post rots? Anyhow Kenobi hadn't started his who-gin training yet which is noted in rebels recon to have deepened his connection to the force. Using pre-prime versions of characters isn't a great way to gauge them.
11. Vader pushed her after pushing her off balance with his strength.
That she was ko'd is pointless to bring up unless there's a ledge here. All Vader did was push her a bit in the air with her defenses down. Hardly an indication of great superiority
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
2. You've managed to note Vader driving her back with her strength but seem to have failed to note her dancing around him with his speed, and just as the screen cuts off, we see Ahsoka start to circle around him again. In no way does that imply Vader was clearly superior
I don't want to interfere in your back and forth with Wolff but, just because Ahsoka's style relies on speed, it doesn't mean she's faster than Vader at all. If she could really "run circles" around Vader why didn't she simply rotated her position to avoid being pressed to edge of the plataform? Or, more dramatically, why she didn't even score a glance on his armor by striking him from the sides/behind?
Originally posted by TenebrousWay
I don't want to interfere in your back and forth with Wolff but, just because Ahsoka's style relies on speed, it doesn't mean she's faster than Vader at all. If she could really "run circles" around Vader why didn't she simply rotated her position to avoid being pressed to edge of the plataform? Or, more dramatically, why she didn't even score a glance on his armor by striking him from the sides/behind?
No what makes Ahsoka faster is that she was able to land a hit on Vader with her first move and then via dancing around him caused him to overextend giving her an opening to tk him. Just like what makes Vader stronger is his ability to drive Ahsoka back.
Given Ahsoka landed a hit and forced a mistake at the start, she definitely had the advantage at the start.
The point I was making with what you replied to is that at that moment, you can't give Vader credit for forcing Ahsoka back because she is able to spin and rotate around him which means she isn't being forced back.
As for your other points, Ahsoka couldn't rotate around Vader at the edge because of the narrow space and limited room to maneuver which Incould use to argue she had an unfavorable enviroment but I don't really feel the inclination to at the moment.
Ahsoka was unable to land saber hits, just like Vader, but she actually managed to land the only physical strike of the entire fight. So I guess by your logic, that means Ahsoka won?