Originally posted by Rockydonovang
the assetion sids could have blitzed or near blitzed mace doesn't make sense. The quotes that ppl keep using, the ones saying he hadn't realized what happens express maces surprise at how quickly his friends are cut down,not that he couldn't see sidious's attacks which is an obvious falsehood given he reacted to sids more than once. There's no reason to assume Mace couldn't have held his own if outmatched without vapaad
The assertion that Sidious can near blitz Mace is canonically correct.
And he didn't realize what happen not because of his surprise, because he cannot react to Sidious.
Mace can't hold his own. Sidious drove him back when he had Kit Fisto for help in a matter of three moves- and even then he only parried blows by randomly putting his lightsaber in front of him. In the movie, Sidious had Mace at saberpoint seconds into the fight. Meaning Sidious, without going full-out, can defeat Mace in seconds.
And a guy who demonstrated Force feats equal to Mace (Dooku) got instastomped by Sidious, and the Maul brothers (who, collectively, have superior Force feats to Dooku- Maul rivals him individually) also got stomped by Sidious.
Mace is stomp fodder for ROTS Sidious. Stop this Mace hype.
Originally posted by thesithmaster
The assertion that Sidious can near blitz Mace is canonically correct.
And he didn't realize what happen not because of his surprise, because he cannot react to Sidious.
Mace can't hold his own. Sidious drove him back when he had Kit Fisto for help in a matter of three moves- and even then he only parried blows by randomly putting his lightsaber in front of him. In the movie, Sidious had Mace at saberpoint seconds into the fight. Meaning Sidious, without going full-out, can defeat Mace in seconds.
And a guy who demonstrated Force feats equal to Mace (Dooku) got instastomped by Sidious, and the Maul brothers (who, collectively, have superior Force feats to Dooku- Maul rivals him individually) also got stomped by Sidious.
Mace is stomp fodder for ROTS Sidious. Stop this Mace hype.
Originally posted by thesithmaster
Yeah, I'm mainly talking about Legends.
But even in Canon, Sidious moved faster than Mace could react, and had him at saberpoint seconds into the fight (movie).
There's a difference between not reacting fast enough and Sidious quickly putting Mace in his place.
I agree there were certain periods of the fight where Sidious could have killed Mace rather quickly but choose not to.
However, Vappad as we know it doesn't exist in Canon, so the fact Mace eventually got the upper hand against Sidious must be considered as a legitimate showing.
The only description of Vaapad I've seen so far is "Form VII: Juyo / Vaapad," and then stated Mace was a practitioner.
It says nothing about that superconducting loop nonsense that Legends had.
Whatever source your thinking of, I'm 98% sure it's Legends. That being said, if you can find the source, let me know and I'll check.
Originally posted by thesithmaster
Gillard can change his rankings whenever he wants. He had Mace as a nine, but now has Mace as eight close to nine.
Nah, he doesn't work on SW anymore. He's not part of the story group or any kind of creative force in canon, so any "changes" he makes now would be worthless.
Only further explanations of his original rankings would be useful to consider.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Nah, he doesn't work on SW anymore. He's not part of the story group or any kind of creative force in canon, so any "changes" he makes now would be worthless.Only further explanations of his original rankings would be useful to consider.
He doesn't work on Star Wars anymore but he did create the fights for the prequels and the basics of the seven forms of lightsaber combat which the EU frequently uses, so his word, even now, does matter in both Canon and Legends.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
A high 8 can obviously react to a 9. We saw that with Maul v Sidious and Dooku v Yoda.There's a difference between not reacting fast enough and Sidious quickly putting Mace in his place.
I agree there were certain periods of the fight where Sidious could have killed Mace rather quickly but choose not to.
However, Vappad as we know it doesn't exist in Canon, so the fact Mace eventually got the upper hand against Sidious must be considered as a legitimate showing.
Maul couldn't really react to Sidious. Maul was rage amped, Sidious was toying, yet Sidious still demolished Maul.
And Dooku could react to Yoda a bit. We saw how quickly a somewhat rage amped Dooku (AOTC novel) got taught a lesson by holding back Yoda. And an amped Dooku was quickly driven back by an injured Yoda when Yoda started going full-out. Dark Rendezvous goes as far to state that Yoda could have annihilated amped Dooku had he gone after him.
High eights should react to a regular nine, like Anakin. When we reach Yoda/Sidious level combatants, though, they are simply too fast and too strong. Mace can barely react to Yoda and Sidious due to Yoda/Sidious' Force Augmentation.
Yes, Vaapad amp does not exist in Canon, but Sidious was throwing the fight. We see this when Sidious has Mace at saberpoint seconds into the fight (movie).
Originally posted by thesithmaster
Maul couldn't really react to Sidious. Maul was rage amped, Sidious was toying, yet Sidious still demolished Maul.
You're mixing up Legends with Canon.
Rage amp doesn't exist, and nothing says Sidious was toying at the end.
And Sidious didn't demolish Maul by any stretch of imagination either.
And Dooku could react to Yoda a bit. We saw how quickly a somewhat rage amped Dooku (AOTC novel) got taught a lesson by holding back Yoda. And an amped Dooku was quickly driven back by an injured Yoda when Yoda started going full-out. Dark Rendezvous goes as far to state that Yoda could have annihilated amped Dooku had he gone after him.
You're still mixing up Legends with Canon.
High eights should react to a regular nine, like Anakin. When we reach Yoda/Sidious level combatants, though, they are simply too fast and too strong. Mace can barely react to Yoda and Sidious due to Yoda/Sidious' Force Augmentation.
Completely unsupported. All 9s are equal and only battlefield conditions and circumstance put them apart, as per NG.
Yes, Vaapad amp does not exist in Canon, but Sidious was throwing the fight. We see this when Sidious has Mace at saberpoint seconds into the fight (movie).
Sidious throwing the fight but losing legitimately are not mutually exclusive.
This is what I asked, Ant.
"Hello Mr. Gillard, I'm a huge fan regarding your work in the Prequel trilogy, especially how both you and Mr. Lucas created the nine levels of Lightsaber dueling, such as Yoda and the Emperor being level nines. I was wondering how that translates into the Original trilogy, episodes 4 through 6. Where would the likes of Darth Vader, episode 4 Obi-wan, The Emperor from Episode 6, Yoda from Episode 5, and Luke from_episode 5 and later 6_scale in your Lightsaber levels? And is Qui-Gon Jinn a level 7 Lightsaber duelist? If you can answer these questions it would be much appreciated."