Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
Your creating a false analogy using Abhi's argument about Superman vs ZOOM. Superman has [b]CONSISTENTLY demonstrated speed feats that put him at a competitive level with the wielders of The Speed Force. Conversely, Hulk has NEVER demonstrated speed feats on a consistent level that would indicate he can land a punch on an all out Captain Marvel.He wouldn't land ANY of those Carver amped punches before Marvel's onslaught of lightning strikes and punches laid waste to him. Marvel was BOTH fast and STRONG enough to virtually simultaneously hold KC Superman in PLACE and then MOVE out of the way of the lightning strikes.
BANNER HAS NO HOPE!!! [/B]
He did it against Sentry, so he'd do it against Billy. And let's not pretend as if Captain Marvel has never been hit by someone slower than he was. Abhi argued that speed does not always equal win, and I agree with him. Not to mention that you've repeatedly ignored Dark Saints posts on the matter.
Originally posted by Stoic
He did it against Sentry, so he'd do it against Billy. And let's not pretend as if Captain Marvel has never been hit by someone slower than he was. Abhi argued that speed does not always equal win, and I agree with him. Not to mention that you've repeatedly ignored Dark Saints posts on the matter.
Sentry clearly wasn't going all out as demonstrated by his performance in SIEGE. That won't be the case with the Captain of The Thunder and Lightning( That was a shot at you lowly Thor followers!)
I'VE ANNIHILATED DARKSAINT FOR 2 YEARS STRAIGHT!!!
HOW MUCH MORE ABUSE CAN HE STAND?!!!
Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
Sentry clearly wasn't going all out as demonstrated by his performance in SIEGE. That won't be the case with the Captain of The Thunder and Lightning( That was a shot at you lowly Thor followers!)[b]I'VE ANNIHILATED DARKSAINT FOR 2 YEARS STRAIGHT!!!
HOW MUCH MORE ABUSE CAN HE STAND?!!! [/B]
Bob was going all out with what he had at the time. You bringing up what he later did does not remove the fact that he punched Sentry squarely in the face during a blitz attempt. He was fast enough to do that on panel to Sentry, he'd be fast enough to do it to Billy as well.
Sentry later learned to use more abilities that were yet to be known to him because he had never faced off against a character as powerful as Owen. What he did to Ares wasn't anything that the Hulk was incapable of doing. The Hulk planted Ares into the ground with one hand and that was the end of Ares. This was also while holding back.
You bring up what Billy did to Superman, but refuse to acknowledge that Superman wasn't really going all out.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Except as soon as Superman said enough was enough, Marvel was out reacted.Marvel never really held any appreciable speed advantage over Superman,at least not in their fight.
Marvel HELD Superman in place and then MOVED out of the way of the thunder strike. Even more there is a sequence where he DOESN'T TOUCH Superman at all but merely stands next to him and still out reacts Superman.
The ending of the conflict between Marvel and Superman clearly indicates that Marvel was breaking the mind control towards the end of the fight. When you take this into account his performance is even more impressive.
Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
Marvel HELD Superman in place and then MOVED out of the way of the thunder strike. Even more there is a sequence where he DOESN'T TOUCH Superman at all but merely stands next to him and still out reacts Superman.The ending of the conflict between Marvel and Superman clearly indicates that Marvel was breaking the mind control towards the end of the fight. When you take this into account his performance is even more impressive.
It would have been a bigger deal if he'd done that to Superman while he was going all out. As it stands, the feat wasn't that impressive.
He held Superman in place, as Superman was begging him to break the mind control, to fight along side him.
Then when. Superman saw that it wasn't working,and that he needed to actually stop shit,he just out reacted Billy.
Am also getting convinced that Billy was Marvel at the time of the explosion. Which means Marvel was vaporised by a multi megaton explosion.
WWH would laugh that off.
look, let's face it--dc has always done their best to try and paint cm and supes as near equals. but narration and and even side-by-side comparisons can NOT make up for the fact that there is a GROSS disparity in achievements and feats. paying homage to a character ALSO doesn't make up for a huge feat disparity. if you removed their direct side-by-side comparisons when they are together, and look at everything else, superman pretty well crushes marvel in all areas. i used to be in the camp that said cm=superman. but that doesn't old anymore. dc TELLING me they're equal means nothing when they keep SHOWING me something else. and they clearly demonstrate that superman>>cm.
so all the superman comparisons are about as meaningful as pissing into a strong wind.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Am also getting convinced that Billy was Marvel at the time of the explosion. Which means Marvel was vaporised by a multi megaton explosion.WWH would laugh that off.
LIES CARVER WORSHIPPER!!!
The lightning strikes CLEARLY show that Marvel was Billy at the time of the explosion. In fact, I believe there is some sort of KINGDOM COME compendium where Ross and Waid address this definitively.
Originally posted by Stoic
Hulk wins, and wouldn't be pretty. People forget that WW Hulk held back because of innocent lives being at stake. Abhi, didn't you just finish arguing in a Superman vs Zoom thread that it isn't always PIS that a slower character can and has beaten faster characters? Well the Hulk tagged the Sentry square in the face for a home run hit. The only difference here, is that he would be able to hit as hard as he was at the end of the WW Hulk mini without screaming for someone to please stop him. He could do do repeatedly.
Originally posted by leonidas
look, let's face it--dc has always done their best to try and paint cm and supes as near equals. but narration and and even side-by-side comparisons can NOT make up for the fact that there is a GROSS disparity in achievements and feats. paying homage to a character ALSO doesn't make up for a huge feat disparity. if you removed their direct side-by-side comparisons when they are together, and look at everything else, superman pretty well crushes marvel in all areas. i used to be in the camp that said cm=superman. but that doesn't old anymore. dc TELLING me they're equal means nothing when they keep SHOWING me something else. and they clearly demonstrate that superman>>cm.so all the superman comparisons are about as meaningful as pissing into a strong wind.
The Superman comparisons. in particular the KINGDOM COME Superman comparison IS meaningful because that is the ONLY depiction of KC Marvel's power we can draw from.
The comparison is ALSO meaningful because KC Superman would DECIMATE WWH with absolute ease. The fact that Marvel could contend with KC Superman at all demonstrates his superiority.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
LoB loves that though
oh i know that.... and i'm not saying throw out their meetings, but this is an odd case where direct meetings and battles don't really come close to telling the WHOLE story. if we looked at just the way they fought each or interacted with each other they WOULD be equals. when you look at the broader picture though, it's clear they are pretty far from equal. cm=ww imo, and even that (especially currently) is questionable.
i would LOVE for someone to take cm and make something of him. i honestly believe that in both universes, no other character combines history and an almost complete disregard by writers like cm. that dude NEEDS to be made awesome. soooo much potential for amazing stories with his ties to magic and his established history. most underused and undervalued character in comics as far as i'm concerned. /shrug
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Question: does Marvel's clothing change back when it's separated from him, when he's Billy?I'm talking about his cape,which Superman ripped off and tied to the flagpole.
I've never seen a comparable depiction to the one in KINGDOM COME. The uniform is never shown outside of Billy wearing it. I think the cape scene was clearly symbolic as it marked his sacrifice as creating a new nation in the post war era.
So whenever he changed to Billy, he was always shown wearing that black tux.
So what I'm getting at, is at the end, Superman was still clutching the cape after he died.
If it follows Billy/Marvel, then it means he was still Marvel when he died.
If it doesn't, and has no link whatsoever to Marvel after being separated, then it means nothing.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Question: does Marvel's clothing change back when it's separated from him, when he's Billy?I'm talking about his cape,which Superman ripped off and tied to the flagpole.