Loras Tyrell vs Ned Stark

Originally posted by Bashar Teg
i agree that novel jamie was superior. grrm put him over most swordsman, at least in character dialogue concerning him and in jaime's personal reflections on who is better than who. with that said, i might be so bold as to argue that book loras could match or perhaps even defeat jamie in a duel.

Book Loras has what to suggest that he could match Jaime? I mean, he's the best jouster in ASOIAF, but combat wise Jaime is, agaian, the best natural swordsmen Selmy ever saw & and the potentially best swordsman in Westeros, hold off The Smiling Knight at the age of 15, cut through the battlefield against Robb while vastly outnumbered & slaughtered Robb's personal guard, while Loras has done what exactly?

Originally posted by Bashar Teg
you're shifting the goal posts in a way which proves nothing for the topic.

d&d clearly stated that ned was equal to jamie

and that regardless of his intentions, it quickly became a fight to the death.

so no, jamie did not hold back in the end, and thus him and ned were even. so we saw a clear demonstration of their abilities, without anyone 'holding back'. you really cant argue around those points.

i admit i'm stretching with loras vs jamie, but it just seems that jamie see's him as a younger version of himself, in both skill and arrogance.

Jaime hated that smile. "I was better than you Ser Loras, I was bigger, I was stronger, and I was quicker."

"And now you're older," the boy said. "My lord."

He had to laugh. This is too absurd. Tyrion would mock me unmercifully if he could hear me now, comparing cocks with this green boy. "Older and wiser, ser. You should learn from me."

"As you learned from Ser Boros and Ser Meryn?"

That arrow hit too close to the mark. "I learned from the White Bull and Barristan the Bold," Jaime snapped. "I learned from Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, who could have slain all five of you with his left hand while he was taking a piss with the right. I learned from Prince Lewyn of Dorne and Ser Oswell Whent and Ser Jonothor Darry, good men every one."

"Dead men, every one."

He's me, Jaime realized suddenly..... all cocksure arrogance and empty chivalry. This is what it does to you, to be too good too young....

Jaime also states that Loras isn't on his level yet, but has the talent to become a better fighter in the future.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
And like I said, Ned and Jaime are on the same level.

this is really all that matters to the topic, and we pretty much agree on what's truly relevant.

I mean, it doesn't makes sense that Jaime isn't able to to destroy Ned, but whatever.
I will take this to wank Arthur lol

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Jaime also states that Loras isn't on his level yet, but has the talent to become a better fighter in the future.

i don't remember that part, but it does ring a bell. do you remember which book? i need context to judge because jaime is not always a reliable narrator imho due to his arrogance and self-deception.

in the section i quoted, jamie does put himself over loras, but quickly gave himself a chiding over "comparing cocks". so it could have been an honest personal assessment of his skills vs loras', or it could have just as easily been his wounded pride speaking, trying to passive aggressively prick loras with a backhanded compliment.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Because the creators said he did? Because Jaime just killed his friend?

Ned isnt too stupid as to kill the man whose brother in law to the King!!!!

Its common sense.

Originally posted by juggerman
Prove it

Nope. Jaime just had all his men killed and personally killed Jory in front of Ned. Why would Ned be holding back?

He did, 17 years ago. Hardly points to him being at the top of his game

Being humble doesn't really translate to sword fights

Jaime is very cocky but it's well earned

Read above.

Ned was a better swordman that he seemed.

https://youtu.be/CjoEfLFo6aM

He manage to hold it against Ser Arthur, who is 2x better than what Jaime is. Plus Ned is youger and less experience.

Also, Ned once said when asked if he'd participate in the hand's tournament that he wouldnt because he wasnt the man to show his opponents his skills.

I dont doubt Ned defeating Jaime. Jaime never fought a real opponent. Not even in the books.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Ned isnt too stupid as to kill the man whose brother in law to the King!!!!

Its common sense.

Book Jaime is only described through statements not feats.

He fought in Greyjoy's rebellion as did Ned.

Book Ned fought in Robert's rebellion.

Also book Ned never fought Jaime. So a direct comparisson doesnt exist.

Nahh, Ser Arthur is still way above Jaime.

Book Ned is still said to have defeated Arthur, until disproven by Winds of Winter that gives Ned a big accomplishment.

I consider Rhaegal better than Jaime too.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
But Jaime would kill the best friend of the king/the hand of the king?
Anyway, the creators said Ned tried to kill Jaime, lol.
Also, Jaime fought Brienne, and book-wise, the Smiling Knight.

No.

Disagree. Ned wouldnt put himself and his family in danger.

Ned is wiser than that.

Ned was probably trying to defeat Jaime. Which is different from killing him.

Jaime wasnt toying neither.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
No.

Disagree. Ned wouldnt put himself and his family in danger.

Ned is wiser than that.

Ned was probably trying to defeat Jaime. Which is different from killing him.

Jaime wasnt toying neither.

What the creators said > your opinion.

What are you reffering to?

Based on what wasn't he trying to kill him? Again, the creators opinion > yours.

We know he was toying first, and then got serious.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Book Jaime is only described through statements not feats.

He fought in Greyjoy's rebellion as did Ned.

Book Ned fought in Robert's rebellion.

Also book Ned never fought Jaime. So a direct comparisson doesnt exist.

Nahh, Ser Arthur is still way above Jaime.

Book Ned is still said to have defeated Arthur, until disproven by Winds of Winter that gives Ned a big accomplishment.

I consider Rhaegal better than Jaime too.

We know that Book Ned is only a average fighter, while Jaime is one of the best.

Book Ned never defeated Arthur, he explucity says that Howland saved him.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
So you agree that Jaime didn't wanted to kill him?

What the creators said > your opinion.

What are you reffering to?

Based on what wasn't he trying to kill him? Again, the creators opinion > yours.

We know he was toying first, and then got serious.

When did the creators said that?

Ned is smarter than that dude.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=235&v=zK--_53sd3w

when the fight starts to happen, jaime realizes that when ned fights a man for real, he fights a man for real, and jaime starts to realize that his life is in danger here, and it becomes a fight to the death

I'm not sure what your point is. I mean, I guess Ned is smarter than Jaime, but what does that prove?

@Bashar I don't have the quote, but I try to find. Might need a bit longer, as I don't have the book itself.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=235&v=zK--_53sd3w

I'm not sure what your point is. I mean, I guess Ned is smarter than Jaime, but what does that prove?

@Bashar I don't have the quote, but I try to find. Might need a bit longer, as I don't have the book itself.

In the same way Jaime was also trying to kill Ned.

Also he says they were evenly match. So Jaime never had the upper hand.

I think Ned would have won. He is wiser and more experienced than Jaime.

Originally posted by Bashar Teg
good call, however he ordered his men to take him alive, which meant that at the moment he did not plan on fighting ned. once they crossed swords, jamie was out to kill ned, which the later dialogue with tywin supports.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15-op9n7FO8

notice 1:15 how he steps back, and avoids the fight until confronted by jory. clearly he did not plan on ned/jory overcoming his guards and confronting him directly, so you can't really apply his previous decision to a drastically altered situation.

Are we to consider that he decided to let his brother die? I understand your point but the entire reason he confronted Stark was about Tyrion. Once he realized killing Ned would only doom his brother I doubt he went into "kill mode"

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Read above.

Ned was a better swordman that he seemed.

https://youtu.be/CjoEfLFo6aM

He manage to hold it against Ser Arthur, who is 2x better than what Jaime is. Plus Ned is youger and less experience.

Also, Ned once said when asked if he'd participate in the hand's tournament that he wouldnt because he wasnt the man to show his opponents his skills.

I dont doubt Ned defeating Jaime. Jaime never fought a real opponent. Not even in the books.

Read above.

Agreed

Yes Ned was better than average. Better than most even. But Jaime was considered the very best. Huge difference

I'm aware of Ned's hesitance to compete in tourneys

You can think what you want but there's much evidence pointing to Jaime holding back in that duel. It's possible he started going all out towards the end but that's not a given

Originally posted by juggerman

You can think what you want but there's much evidence pointing to Jaime holding back in that duel. It's possible he started going all out towards the end but that's not a given

Originally posted by Ursumeles
I mean D&D confirmed that he was going all-out in the end. That being said, it might refers to the bladelock, and the fight that would've happened after it.

Gonna watch the video now. Maybe my opinion will change

Originally posted by Bashar Teg
the video you're sourcing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=235&v=zK--_53sd3w

Word up this does change things.

1. It confirms Ned was not holding back so that point can be dropped. 9When Ned fights a man he fights for real)

2. Jaime is indeed toying with Ned at first

3. Once they cross blades Jaime realized Ned is better than he thought

4. Jaime stepped it up after realizing Ned was near or on his level.

5. It could have gone either way meaning that either Ned and Jaime were equals or that they were close enough to have a darn close fight

So I'm altering my answer to this match up. I still think Jaime would win due to the fact he was toying with Ned and Ned was still working for it in the beginning but I no longer think Jaime stomps. IMO Jaime would win 7/10