Originally posted by The Merchant
In the film it's also said Yoda and Ben believed Luke can kill Luke, and there only doubt for Luke was Luke himself not wanting to kill Vader. Luke also held back as well, and 2 times Vader took a swing at Luke that if Luke did not stop would have died, so the emotional conflict within Vader isn't as extreme as people make it out to be.
Well he did turn back to the light side, so I think it's pretty safe to say it was pretty damn extreme.
As I see it, it's less a matter of Vader not trying and more a matter of mentality having a huge impact on the performance of Force users. A Jedi of average ability with conviction and focus can overcome a more talented one who lacks those qualities. I attribute Vader's loss more to factors like doubt, shame, distraction, and general imbalance than I do any lack of graveness or effort.
I've always heard that Vader was holding back in his ROTJ fight with Luke, but I don't recall ever seeing a single quote to support that... The only quotes I've ever seen have been about Luke holding back against him, while Vader seems quite willing to kill him if he won't turn.
I think ROTJ Luke is just really good.
Him turning back to the Light was unexpected not even Ben nor Yoda expectde that to happen, Ben even says he's irredeemable. Luke was trying to turn him, but I doubt his words affected Vader especially since 2 times he could have killed Luke if Luke didn't react at the last second. Lukes just that good, it's head canon that Vader lost to Luke via circumstances.
Huh? Luke states that he sense Vader is conflicted prior to their duel and that there is still good in him. And we see this is true when Vader turns at the end. This isn’t “head canon” it’s presented to us in the film itself.
That Vader may be willing to kill Luke does not mean he is not conflicted. He is. And the film not only states this but shows us this.
And I'm completely unsure why Ben's opinion on Vader "redeemability" is in anyway relevant. He was wrong. Blatantly so.
Originally posted by Trocity
I've always heard that Vader was holding back in his ROTJ fight with Luke, but I don't recall ever seeing a single quote to support that... The only quotes I've ever seen have been about Luke holding back against him, while Vader seems quite willing to kill him if he won't turn.I think ROTJ Luke is just really good.
"I will not fight you, Father," Luke stated. "You are unwise to lower you're defenses". His anger was layered, now - he did not want to win if the boy was not battling to the fullest. But if winning meant he had to kill a boy who wouldn't fight ... Then he could do that, too. Only he wanted Luke to be aware of those consequences. He wanted Luke to know this was no longer just a game. This was Darkness."At this point, when the fight's essentially over, Vader hesitates before deciding he's willing to kill Luke. And even then, it's pretty clear Vader's lying to himself regarding this conviction of his because:
Originally posted by NewGuy01
As I see it, it's less a matter of Vader not trying and more a matter of mentality having a huge impact on the performance of Force users. A Jedi of average ability with conviction and focus can overcome a more talented one who lacks those qualities. I attribute Vader's loss more to factors like doubt, shame, distraction, and general imbalance than I do any lack of graveness or effort.
Originally posted by The Merchant
Well considering Yoda nor Ben tried to stop Luke unlike in ESB when confronting Vader, that's telling how they feel for Luke. Yoda also pretty much said Lukes final test before becoming a Jedi Knight is to defeat Vader before he died.
He never “rushed off” to face Vader while he was with Ben and Luke in ROTJ.
Also they weren’t very specific in what he was supposed to do when facing Vader. It seems his trial was just to resist the dark side.
Also remember Yoda sending Obi-Wan to destroy Anakin in ROTS? And he even succeeded. Does that mean Obi-Wan was legit =/> ROTS Anakin?
In canon Luke is legitimately = or slightly superior to Vader.
In Legends Luke was rage amped for the whole fight (to the point where he basically can be compared to Anakin's final state vs Dooku). When he snaps out of it conflicted Vader beats him back rather thoroughly then Luke goes rampant at the end.